Episode 7

full
Published on:

5th Apr 2024

S01E07. Anne Haas Dyson, Ph.D.

Anne Haas Dyson is a former teacher of young children and a fellow of the American Educational Research Association. Among her previous appointments was as a longtime professor at the University of California, Berkeley, where she received the campus-wide Distinguished Teaching Award. She has spent over 40 years studying the childhood cultures and literacy learning of young schoolchildren, for which she has received numerous awards. Dyson aims, first, to bring respect and intellectual attention to childhood cultures and their relationship to school learning. Young children do not participate in school because they are concerned about the national economy, international competition, or climbing a ladder to academic accolades from a grateful nation. They desire to make sense of their world and to gain companionship in what can be a confusing world. Second, she aims to document the diversity of resources (languages, popular culture texts, semiotic tools, everyday experiences) our diverse school children bring with them with which to participate intellectually and socially in school, especially in written language development. Her most recent book publications are, published in 2016, Child cultures, schooling, and literacy: Global perspectives on children composing their lives, and, in 2021, Writing the School House Blues: Literacy, Equity, and Belonging in a Child’s Early Schooling.

Transcript
Speaker:

Hello listeners.

2

:

Hi, I'm Dr.

3

:

Margaret Vaughn and welcome to

Getting Smarter, a podcast where

4

:

I get to talk with some of the

most transformational thinkers and

5

:

leaders in the field of education,

all in the hopes of getting smarter.

6

:

Join me in listening and learning.

7

:

Welcome today we have the wonderful Dr.

8

:

Anne Hess Dyson who's visiting

us and I am so thrilled I'm a

9

:

super fan and welcome to the show.

10

:

We're so happy to have you here.

11

:

I'm happy to be here.

12

:

Thank you.

13

:

Well, I'd love to read your biography

because you are amazing and so I'm

14

:

going to, I'm going to start us off

with your amazing bio biography.

15

:

So Dr.

16

:

Dyson is a former teacher of young

children and a fellow of the American

17

:

Educational Research Association.

18

:

Among her previous appointments

was a long time professor at the

19

:

University of California, Berkeley,

where she received the Campus

20

:

Wide Distinguished Teaching Award.

21

:

She has spent over 42 years studying

the childhood cultures and literacy

22

:

learning of young school children, for

which she has received numerous awards.

23

:

Dr.

24

:

Dyson aims first to bring respect

and intellectual attention to

25

:

childhood cultures and their

relationship to school learning.

26

:

Young children do not participate in

school because they are concerned about

27

:

the national economy, international

competition, or climbing a ladder to the

28

:

academic accolades from a grateful nation.

29

:

They desire to make sense of their

world and to gain companionship

30

:

in what can be a confusing world.

31

:

Second, Dr.

32

:

Dyson aims to document the

diversity of resources, languages,

33

:

popular culture text, and more.

34

:

Semiotic tools, everyday experiences are

diverse school children bring with them

35

:

with which to participate intellectually

and socially in school, especially

36

:

in written language development.

37

:

Her most recent book publications

are published in:

38

:

culture schooling and literacy

global perspectives on children

39

:

composing their lives and in 2021.

40

:

Writing the Schoolhouse Blues

Literacy, Equity, and Belonging

41

:

in a Child's Early Schooling.

42

:

Wow.

43

:

Wow.

44

:

You are such a hero of mine and to so

many people and I, I just love you.

45

:

I think you're just, you're wonderful.

46

:

And so thank you for

making the time today.

47

:

Thank you very much.

48

:

Thank you.

49

:

You are just, just a star.

50

:

And I, I have my books here that are

very instrumental, writing superheroes.

51

:

Your other books, the Brothers

and Sisters Learn to Write.

52

:

And I have so many post its and

notes in here that I regularly visit.

53

:

And I had those since I

was a doctoral student.

54

:

And you are just a hero.

55

:

So thank you.

56

:

Thank you.

57

:

Thank you very much.

58

:

All right.

59

:

So we, before we get started, I

wondered if you could tell us a little

60

:

bit about how did you get into the

field of education and teaching?

61

:

Tell me a little bit about that path.

62

:

All right.

63

:

I, I want to say, first of all, that when

I was at the university, I, I was really

64

:

fascinated by geology and archaeology.

65

:

Those were my passions, really, and I

was just mesmerized by the idea that

66

:

you could go deep into the earth, and

at the same time you could go deep into

67

:

the evolution of humanity, of human

cultures, and I know evolution is a

68

:

kind of a funny word because it implies

increasing progress, and it's hard to

69

:

look at the world today and think we've

made progress, but nonetheless, I, if

70

:

you look long term, you can see that.

71

:

And the stories to be told buried

with the earth imagining, you were

72

:

looking at, you were studying.

73

:

So I didn't pursue that

passion, no, I decided not to.

74

:

One is I don't have any deaf perception.

75

:

I was cross eyed as a kid, and it

wasn't fixed when I got to be an adult,

76

:

and I, I had it cosmetically fixed.

77

:

But if you If you don't fix it

when they're young, then you

78

:

don't get any depth perception.

79

:

You just look with one eye.

80

:

So so I don't really know

what depth perception is.

81

:

But I do, I do know that I have

to go really slow on steps because

82

:

they look flat, everything.

83

:

Oh, really?

84

:

So you fall a lot if you're not

really, really careful, but I've

85

:

always been really, really careful.

86

:

So that was one problem because

back then when I was in college,

87

:

everything was in topographical

maps and I couldn't really get them.

88

:

But the professors were very nice to

me, and they always had an assistant

89

:

to tell me what I should see, but

that didn't seem, it seemed like

90

:

that's what's going to cause problems.

91

:

And the other thing was they didn't

talk about how people made money.

92

:

From being an archaeologist,

I couldn't figure it out.

93

:

I, I, I didn't really

understand anything about that.

94

:

And I grew up in the 50s and 60s when

women were nurses, which I associated

95

:

with hospitals and people going to die

or Secretaries where you had a lot of

96

:

paperwork and I do not write paperwork.

97

:

And third, you could be a teacher.

98

:

So I decided to go into education

that is not an auspicious beginning.

99

:

I didn't be a teacher because I

thought, you know, I just, I, I

100

:

spent my school years in a little

farm town and my father died.

101

:

We lived in L.

102

:

A.

103

:

and then my father got sick and

wanted to go back to Wisconsin.

104

:

I don't know why I'm going into this, but

I, I, I want to tell you that I, I grew up

105

:

then my school years in this little farm

town and we, for a long time we didn't

106

:

have a car or anything, so my world was,

I read a lot and my mother was very fun.

107

:

And we were happy, but we didn't have

any money, so I didn't have any exposure

108

:

to, you know, I was stuck with what

the ideology was, and the ideology was

109

:

women were secretaries like my mom, and

I knew how much paperwork she had, and

110

:

nurses, and I didn't want anything to

because that was not good news for us.

111

:

And then there was teachers.

112

:

So but the thing is, when I took my first

teaching job, I through a long story,

113

:

I we don't have time for me to tell.

114

:

And I don't really know

how we would tell it.

115

:

But my first teaching job

was kind of on the books.

116

:

border in El Paso, Texas, in between

Texas and Mexico, and I took this

117

:

job over the phone and put things

on a greyhound and went to Texas.

118

:

Wow.

119

:

Why, but I did.

120

:

I wasn't, I just wanted a job, and this

didn't pay much, but I knew I would

121

:

eat, and Everything would be okay.

122

:

So I went and when I got there, the

kids, a lot of the kids came across

123

:

the border every day because back then

the border, it was very different.

124

:

The border was, we went back and forth all

the time and the kids went back and forth.

125

:

So, but I didn't, I didn't know

where the kids were coming from and

126

:

I didn't know the kids and I did

remember that one thing I had learned.

127

:

through my education classes,

was that you have to teach by

128

:

building on what people know.

129

:

Because if people don't, you can't

build on what they don't have.

130

:

There's no foundation there.

131

:

So you, you have to know what kids know.

132

:

So I thought, I have to get to know

these kids, I can't teach them.

133

:

So I just, it turned into

kind of an archaeology.

134

:

I had to go deep and get to know

them as individuals, as a group.

135

:

I went across the border, I met parents,

and that was fun because my Spanish

136

:

was okay, but it wasn't very good.

137

:

And their English, their parents

English wasn't very good.

138

:

So, it was just funny.

139

:

It was just fun.

140

:

And I would, we liked each other in

the end, even though we couldn't.

141

:

We didn't really communicate, but the

kids had a lot of fun because they

142

:

were bilingual and they, I don't know.

143

:

Anyway, so I did that and I went to all

the fairs and I went to the marketplace

144

:

and, and I, I, I just, I just loved it.

145

:

And I love the kids.

146

:

I found it all very intellectually

and emotionally satisfying.

147

:

So, and I kept thinking, I

am an archaeologist, really.

148

:

I am.

149

:

And I had liked ethnography and I

had taken a class with Doug Foley.

150

:

I don't know if he's still

well known, but he was very

151

:

well known when I was at Texas.

152

:

And he taught ethnography and

I learned a lot from him and I

153

:

thought I'm an ethnographer and

I'm an archaeologist after all.

154

:

I love that.

155

:

So a couple questions.

156

:

So was it advertised in

the newspaper for the job?

157

:

How did you learn of it?

158

:

I didn't do this job Well, you know I

was going to graduate and back then the

159

:

schools were offering jobs Kind of in the,

in the mid to late summer, the new people.

160

:

And I did, I did get offered

jobs, but by then I had already

161

:

said I was going to Texas.

162

:

So when it was near graduation, I I

was in the student union and there was

163

:

a little note on the, on a bulletin

board that said, teachers wanted, call

164

:

Margaret Bubliss, what's her name?

165

:

We had other names for

her, but that was her name.

166

:

Contact such and such.

167

:

So I did.

168

:

And it was a Catholic school from a, in

a, in a parish and they were, Looking

169

:

for teachers and they would, and to call.

170

:

So I thought, well, all right.

171

:

I didn't know anything, so I called.

172

:

And it went well.

173

:

And I thought she certainly

hired me fast, but okay then.

174

:

What grade was it, was it young

grades or was it middle school?

175

:

It's, it's Little kids.

176

:

Little kids.

177

:

Little kids.

178

:

I've always taught little kids.

179

:

I think in my years of teaching, I

taught, I did teach preschool and I

180

:

taught second grade and then I kind

of stuck with first grade for a while.

181

:

Because first grade was when

reading writing started.

182

:

Although back then, you know,

you weren't allowed to have

183

:

pencils in the kindergarten.

184

:

And, oh wow, it's very,

very, very, very different.

185

:

And in first grade, you didn't I started

right away because I liked writing and

186

:

The kids, the kids were great but you

weren't supposed to start till the second

187

:

semester, because the first semester you

were supposed to do all this silly stuff.

188

:

I just wasn't going to

do visual perception.

189

:

I thought, well, they're not bumping into

anything, so I think I'm gonna get that.

190

:

And auditory discrimination, and

they could talk, so I don't know.

191

:

I just skipped all that and I just

thought we'll do, we'll do it.

192

:

We'll just start right away.

193

:

Was it multi age in that group

or was it primarily kindergarten?

194

:

Was that the kindergarten?

195

:

Back then it was for, I was in first

grade and we weren't supposed to start

196

:

the books and all that until January.

197

:

And now, you know, you go

into kindergarten and you

198

:

think it's first grade.

199

:

It's just awful.

200

:

And kindergarten was fun, but

I was always, reading was very

201

:

important to me when I was

little and I would try to write.

202

:

And I didn't do well in school until

they figured out I could already

203

:

read, because I started really late

because we had just moved from L.

204

:

A.

205

:

And my father asked my mother to put

me in first grade, not kindergarten.

206

:

So I didn't go to kindergarten.

207

:

I was only five.

208

:

And by the time I got in

school, it was end of October.

209

:

And so, I didn't know anything.

210

:

Except I had to, I got to wear my

Sunday dress and my Sunday shoes.

211

:

That's it.

212

:

And I got my own box of colors.

213

:

I didn't have to share it.

214

:

And I thought, this will be great.

215

:

But then when I went, oh, I, oh, and

I got a clown with balloons to color.

216

:

And then I colored them and

I was being very careful.

217

:

And then the girl sitting next to me,

Aisle away because everybody was in

218

:

straight lines, which I thought was

strange, but anyway, she was very

219

:

concerned about my coloring and she

kept pointing to the letters in the

220

:

middle of each balloon and then pointing

to the, oh, there was a clown with

221

:

balloons just like I had on the wall.

222

:

And, I said, well, I'm doing

it the way I wanna do it.

223

:

And she said, no, no, no, . And the

the nun came and she put an F on.

224

:

Oh, because you weren't

supposed to help each other.

225

:

Which of course, it's just

the opposite of what I say.

226

:

. Yeah.

227

:

That was my, and she put an F on mine,

I luckily didn't know what that meant,

228

:

except that she had ruined my picture.

229

:

Oh.

230

:

I hated school.

231

:

I just, I just thought these

people, and so, anyway, I

232

:

didn't have a great start, but.

233

:

I went to the before my father died, he

did take me to the library and there was a

234

:

real nice woman there, Vera Schwartz, and

she showed me where the kids books were.

235

:

And by the end of the year, I was reading

oh, Ten Thousand Leagues Under the Sea.

236

:

Oh, wow.

237

:

All that kind of thing.

238

:

Yeah.

239

:

I, but at school, I, I didn't

do anything until I think third

240

:

grade, yeah, third grade I had Mrs.

241

:

Gruber.

242

:

She was great.

243

:

And she noticed that I was

looking around this big book

244

:

and she said, can you read that?

245

:

And I said, oh yes.

246

:

And I read it to her

and I told her, I write.

247

:

And I, I, I showed her one and she said,

Oh my goodness, she told everybody.

248

:

And then all of a sudden

everything changed at school.

249

:

And because of course what they

expected from me was very different.

250

:

And then.

251

:

And then that was just interesting.

252

:

So from that, I got this great interest

in the social lives of kids because I kept

253

:

talking in school, just for one reason.

254

:

I just, you know, I was from a big family.

255

:

And I talked.

256

:

And so I just kept talking because

I didn't see any reason not to talk.

257

:

And then yeah, so I, I, when I got

into researching, I really liked

258

:

classrooms that let the kids talk.

259

:

How did you, those experiences you

tell from your early childhood, it

260

:

makes so much sense with your world

view and how you, you know, your

261

:

writing and how you, had you always

carried that with you throughout?

262

:

I mean, as you're a teacher and then

as you transition to as a researcher?

263

:

Yeah.

264

:

I did.

265

:

I did, because I think kids conversations

are so fun and the drama of it, and

266

:

that's what I really loved when I

got into research, which was another

267

:

kind of inauspicious beginning.

268

:

I was putting my husband at the through

school, through undergraduate school,

269

:

and out to my not very lucrative teaching

job, but I was enjoying my teaching job.

270

:

And we were in Austin now, and And

Austin was a very nice place in the 70s.

271

:

It was a very nice place.

272

:

I, I don't, I haven't been back.

273

:

I'm sure it's still nice.

274

:

But then it was small and it was just fun.

275

:

And Whole Foods, which is now a big

corporation, was just a little dive.

276

:

Oh, really?

277

:

Go and get your lentils, and you know,

we were, we were kind of hippie like,

278

:

and he looked like a hippie, but I

didn't, because I had to go to school.

279

:

But anyway what was I saying?

280

:

Oh, so I was putting him through

school, so I thought, well, I'm good at

281

:

school, I should take a couple classes.

282

:

And I did, and I didn't

really enjoy them, but.

283

:

It was fun to be in school.

284

:

And then, Celia Ganeshi, who I've written

with over the years, and who is my

285

:

very best friend, but she she had just

graduated from Berkeley, and I had no idea

286

:

Berkeley was gonna figure into my life

at all, and I didn't even, I didn't even

287

:

know it was a, I didn't even know, really,

I knew there was a university there,

288

:

and that people like me didn't go there.

289

:

But, anyway, she came, and she taught

a class on applied social linguistics

290

:

in education, and I loved languages.

291

:

I had concentrated in languages and

the geology stuff in undergraduate

292

:

school before I switched to education.

293

:

And anyway she showed us how she did her

dissertation and it was very ethnographic.

294

:

And she asked us to do a small

scale project, a qualitative

295

:

ethnographic project.

296

:

So I went to a Somebody else's classroom

and I just sat there and watched the kids

297

:

and oh my god, it was so fun because I

could see I went during when they were

298

:

doing writing and I could see the social

life around it and the dramas and the The

299

:

passion of their relationships was just,

oh my God, it was better than the movies.

300

:

I just loved it.

301

:

And I could see things going on

that I knew went on, but I hadn't

302

:

ever been able to study it.

303

:

So, I thought, I like this.

304

:

I like this.

305

:

I want to do this.

306

:

So, I just, I just kind of I figured out

that that's what PhD meant and I got one.

307

:

Wow.

308

:

I, I just kept going.

309

:

I just, I just kept, I just kept it up.

310

:

Yeah.

311

:

Oh, that's fascinating.

312

:

So were you, did you stay in the classroom

while you pursued your PhD or did you?

313

:

I found it really hard.

314

:

Yeah.

315

:

I found it really hard because I was

pretty, I, I was pretty passionate about

316

:

this work and what I was doing, trying

to figure out how literacy figured

317

:

into the social lives of children and

what sense they made of it because

318

:

they, how it was just interesting,

all the ways they thought of it.

319

:

Some of the kids I, some of

the kids did things that I had

320

:

read Amelia Ferrero talk about.

321

:

You know, like they put a lot of letters

for their dad and fewer letters for

322

:

their mom and then an elephant would

get a lot of letters just to follow

323

:

their logic and how they talked about

it and how they figured things out.

324

:

And And all the social life going on

around it and the from things like just

325

:

what are you doing and and you want to

do this too, let's do this and, I planned

326

:

things related to writing, but also a

lot of things related to relationships.

327

:

And writing got all figured

into these relationships.

328

:

Like you said you were going to

do this and you were going to

329

:

put me in there and you didn't.

330

:

I'm going to put you in mine

and it was just awesome.

331

:

It was just, it was fun.

332

:

And it was also intellectually very

interesting because nobody really

333

:

talked about writing in that way.

334

:

That was the time of Donald Graves

and he was starting and his work got a

335

:

big splash, but it was very different

from what I was doing because he

336

:

was looking at kids from the point

of view of, you know, an adult.

337

:

Yeah.

338

:

Yeah.

339

:

A journalist or a literature writer.

340

:

And I was looking at it from

the point of view of childhood.

341

:

So my writing was really different.

342

:

And I Also, he was looking at middle

class kids, and I always went to schools

343

:

serving, I was always in cities, and I

went to schools, like the ones I would

344

:

have gone to if I, if we had stayed in LA,

that were very, you know, diverse, or if

345

:

they were the predominance of kids, they

were black kids, African American kids.

346

:

And so and they were, I, I never,

I just, I, I also was conscious of

347

:

income, having not grown up with much.

348

:

I, I, I was interested in those kids

because I figured I had the opposite

349

:

view of the dominant one, which was,

oh, these kids are lacking resources.

350

:

I thought, no, these kids have a lot

of resources and they'll be fine.

351

:

So I went there.

352

:

And so, but because their parents both

worked a lot and, and, and they had,

353

:

and the kids were culturally different.

354

:

And diverse themselves.

355

:

I forgot where I was going now with this.

356

:

Oh, where was I going with this?

357

:

What did you ask me?

358

:

I, I think we were talking about how,

just how you, how you transitioned I think

359

:

into becoming a You know, going to school.

360

:

Did you stay in the classroom?

361

:

And if you, how you transitioned,

how you just navigated that?

362

:

Oh, I see.

363

:

Yeah.

364

:

So I just, I really got into writing and

I got into, oh, I know where I was going.

365

:

I was going to say that when I was

in the classroom, I realized because

366

:

I had started taking these education

classes and because I had observed kids

367

:

I started realizing how different I was

from what people were writing and that

368

:

I I thought they should look, not look

from the perspective of school at what

369

:

kids have or have not, but from the

perspective of kids and their perspective

370

:

on school and what matters to them.

371

:

You, you learn about all different

kinds of resources that they

372

:

draw on, and you have many more

resources as a teacher to draw on.

373

:

I know because when I was teaching we,

I told you about how they, we had to do

374

:

all these, well we didn't have, I didn't

do them, but we were supposed to do all

375

:

these visual and auditory perception

things that were with pictures, and I

376

:

thought, well, I don't think they have

problems with pictures, so I started them.

377

:

I learned they were very into

Charlie Brown then in Snoopy.

378

:

So I taught them, you know, they

all knew their names and they

379

:

were learning to write them.

380

:

And I said, well, all these

characters have names too.

381

:

So we started with Snoopy and who has a

name that starts like Snoopy and all that.

382

:

I love that.

383

:

We learned, you know, and Sally

has a name like Snoopy, so we went

384

:

through all the names and things,

and then we wrote little stories.

385

:

First they dictated them, and then

I got a coloring book and got all

386

:

these Snoopy pictures that had,

you know, And Charlie Brown figure.

387

:

And I said, if they wanted, they could

take a picture and do their own story.

388

:

And so, because they were just figuring

out, this is what I was going to say,

389

:

Donald Gray said, kids can start writing

when they have two sounds that they know.

390

:

And I thought, that's nuts.

391

:

These kids are going to, Learning

that, but they're going to

392

:

learn it by the end of the year.

393

:

We're going to start with

what they like, words.

394

:

So I, I don't know if you ever read

Sylvia Ashton Warner's book, Teacher.

395

:

Yeah.

396

:

And so I, I had read that

and I really liked it.

397

:

So I'm going to start with their words.

398

:

I love that.

399

:

So but I'm going to teach everything you

need to know about literacy as best I can,

400

:

but they're going to teach each other too

because they're going to pay attention

401

:

to each other's names, which they did

and the, the names of these characters.

402

:

And it was interesting to watch.

403

:

How their stories developed, because first

they would put down the names of objects

404

:

and things in the picture, and then they

would tell the story, and then I could

405

:

say, well, there's some words there.

406

:

Okay, so this is, there's a word

is, Snoopy is, and this is how you

407

:

spell is, let's put it in here.

408

:

And then I went from doing, giving

them cards to giving them books.

409

:

I mean, like, word books.

410

:

So I put is in it.

411

:

Wasn't that funny?

412

:

Is in it.

413

:

It also anyway, and then, as they

went along, they got sick of the word

414

:

book, and they started, and they, they

got used to the sound thing, and then

415

:

they started what was being called

invented spelling, and I just thought

416

:

the wonder of, No, kids make, when

kids make progress, they make errors.

417

:

And, and that I just thought

they're spelling wrong, but

418

:

they're spelling, right.

419

:

Oh, I love the end.

420

:

And so I just, and that was when

everybody was coming out and

421

:

saying, Oh, this is a natural way.

422

:

And I thought, well, maybe for your kids.

423

:

Yeah.

424

:

Right.

425

:

And so I did at the time.

426

:

Did you feel like, at the time, did

you, I mean it's easy to see now how

427

:

groundbreaking how groundbreaking your

work is, but at the time, did you, did

428

:

you have a sense that, I mean, did you

have a sense that this was so unique and

429

:

that you were gonna have this huge impact?

430

:

I mean, that probably sounds like

a dumb question, but I mean, I

431

:

did wanna have, I did know that.

432

:

And I was never successful,

really, I think.

433

:

Well, actually, I was successful,

especially in Australia, but I didn't ever

434

:

feel like I had that big of an impact.

435

:

But I did want to say something.

436

:

I wanted to say that kids can start

with whatever they have, but the teacher

437

:

has to start with what they have, too.

438

:

It's not okay if you have a

curriculum, and then the kids have

439

:

to figure out that curriculum.

440

:

You have to figure out what the kids

are doing, and then you build on that.

441

:

And I thought they, they're

losing the fundamental principle

442

:

of teaching and learning.

443

:

You have to build on what you have.

444

:

And I wanted to say that.

445

:

And I wasn't reading anything.

446

:

Everybody was just going over,

you know, just tell them to

447

:

write and they'll invent soon.

448

:

And I thought, no, they won't.

449

:

Maybe your kids will.

450

:

But my kids didn't, and I had

a lot of kids over the years,

451

:

and I was a successful teacher.

452

:

So I so I, and I had met Celia, and I

decided that I was gonna get that PhD,

453

:

I was gonna watch kids, I was gonna

write about kids, and I was gonna,

454

:

I was gonna try to have an impact.

455

:

And I think, I think, I think, I

think when I started, nobody else was

456

:

looking at, that I knew of anyway.

457

:

I hadn't read anybody who, except

Sylvia Ashton Warner, who looked at

458

:

kids from the point of view of what

they had and in their life together.

459

:

Because literacy has to

be meaningful for them.

460

:

And I think the idea of the

social life of kids, I think I

461

:

did have a bit of an impact there.

462

:

Oh, yeah.

463

:

Lots of people doing that.

464

:

But, you know, you're huge.

465

:

Don't, you know, don't underplay, I mean,

you're enormous in, in, in the field.

466

:

So you're, you're so humble,

but you, I mean, you, your

467

:

work is just so groundbreaking.

468

:

I mean, I told you, I,

you know, I'm a super fan.

469

:

But, you know, just the sensibility

and how you are able to really capture

470

:

what that social world that you're, I

mean, that I, I feel like we lose so

471

:

much of that and the way that we think

about policy and, you know what I mean?

472

:

I just, I think your work

is so pivotal and critical.

473

:

It stands time.

474

:

I mean, you know, I think it's, I think

it's interesting that your own experiences

475

:

as a child really, it makes sense, that

really has shaped your own view on how you

476

:

were a teacher and how you, how you, what

brought you to the work it sounds like.

477

:

Yeah.

478

:

Yeah, I did.

479

:

Although I did want to be a geologist.

480

:

I'm very glad that I didn't.

481

:

I think I've, I've really enjoyed my

career, especially the stories that I've,

482

:

I've just, the things I've learned in all

the projects I've done, I've just taken

483

:

what I've learned and gone on to the

next one and tried to figure out what.

484

:

Where, where I wanted to work

in, given where I was, what

485

:

could I learn from this place?

486

:

What are these kids going to teach me?

487

:

And until this last project, I always,

I always chose rooms where I could,

488

:

knew I could get to know the kids.

489

:

And that really was not hard at all

until most recently when I think the

490

:

curriculum has become so bad, so bad.

491

:

You know, they, kids, kids will approach

things in all different ways, right?

492

:

They're, they're, and

school has to be open.

493

:

We're, we're, We're a

democracy or so they say.

494

:

So we hope we say.

495

:

And we are responsible to everybody.

496

:

So you have to have the task so

that everybody can enter into

497

:

them with whatever they have.

498

:

But now, at least locally, I they, they've

taken the so called Common Core, and

499

:

they've divided it up into little bitty

skills, and they're all benchmarked.

500

:

So in kindergarten, by the fifth week

of school, when I was doing that project

501

:

they were supposed to be able to.

502

:

Invent spelling, but five weeks,

five weeks, and of course they're

503

:

constructing, what they are doing

is constructing the Achievement Gap.

504

:

In the story.

505

:

school that Tevon went to.

506

:

Tevon is the little kid that I

followed all those years, and he

507

:

started out in this great preschool.

508

:

It was a wonderful preschool where it

was very play based, and the teacher,

509

:

the teacher was concerned was to make

sure all the kids developed language.

510

:

And when Tevon went, he didn't,

he wasn't speaking that much.

511

:

But by the time he was, he was ready to

turn five and go to kinder, he talked.

512

:

Because the teacher would say, she would

have them play, and then she would,

513

:

she would have them talk to each other.

514

:

And she, if people came, if parents came,

she'd say, well, go talk to the kids.

515

:

You'll enjoy them.

516

:

Have fun.

517

:

She encouraged talk.

518

:

And the way she had her whole group

meetings, they were always, she

519

:

would ask them questions, she would

repeat what they said, and then she

520

:

would say, well, what does anybody

else think about what he said?

521

:

And then they just, they

just blossomed in there.

522

:

They just blossomed, and he blossomed too.

523

:

He just, and he was just

so kind to other people.

524

:

I just, yeah, he lived a lot

of time with his grandma, and

525

:

she did a great job with him.

526

:

Because he, he was always concerned.

527

:

There was one time when I was

in this room, pre school, and

528

:

there was a kid who, who just had

acted out horribly, let's say.

529

:

And she said he could sit on the rug

and think about, What he had done,

530

:

which of course he wasn't going to do.

531

:

I mean he sat, but I'm sure he wasn't

thinking about what he was done.

532

:

But anyway and they were going to

do something with Play Doh, I think.

533

:

I can't quite remember what it was.

534

:

They all sat, they all went

into their little tables.

535

:

And Tavon looked at the teacher and he

said, Do you think so and so could come?

536

:

We have a room.

537

:

And she said, oh, all right.

538

:

. Oh, I wasn't a friend of his.

539

:

I mean, the kid had taken

and smashed his train.

540

:

That's that's what he did, this kid.

541

:

But if I wanted him to come and

sit, because he was all by himself.

542

:

Aw.

543

:

And I just thought he was

just the greatest kid.

544

:

Yeah.

545

:

If, if Tevon was, he is, he, he's

he's African American, he's, his dad

546

:

was really small, and he's really

small but he's just a real cute kid.

547

:

But then he went to kindergarten, and

the school, it has a, because of, history

548

:

because of how they, when during, when

Blacks would come up from the south to the

549

:

north, they, there was a lot of railroad

building and a lot of crop work too.

550

:

in the Midwest.

551

:

But they, the town had all the black

people live in the north of the town.

552

:

They just, and they did not fund it well.

553

:

People live not in good condition.

554

:

But that, it just, it

just was, it was horrible.

555

:

But that happened all over.

556

:

And so, Like many cities, this city

has, you can see, it's segregated.

557

:

Not, not as much as it was in the

beginning, but still it's segregated.

558

:

So, the school district, therefore,

their schools are segregated, too.

559

:

Not on purpose, but just

because of redlining.

560

:

Mm hmm.

561

:

So the school had him, assigned

him to a far south school

562

:

where the majority was white.

563

:

Most of the, when they started assigning

kids, most of, there was a great increase

564

:

in white people in the private schools.

565

:

But this school kept its school

really, but the district assigned

566

:

to volunteer this school.

567

:

So, I was there on the first day of,

of kindergarten, and he walked, he

568

:

walked into the classroom, and he had

a big smile on his face when he came

569

:

in with his dad, walked him to his

classroom, and he was thrilled to see me.

570

:

I knew you would come, he said.

571

:

I knew you would come.

572

:

He introduced me to the other kids

as, this is my friend from preschool.

573

:

And one girl said, Well,

how old are you, you know?

574

:

That's cute.

575

:

That was pretty cute.

576

:

So, anyway I saw him stiffen up.

577

:

He, he kept a smile on his face, but he

was stiff because it was all, it was,

578

:

it was such a different environment than

the very diverse one he had been in.

579

:

So, I saw.

580

:

But he was very friendly to everybody.

581

:

But I saw, first of all, how

the other kids treated him.

582

:

I think I wrote about this

in those articles I sent you.

583

:

Yeah.

584

:

Oh, they're lovely.

585

:

Yeah.

586

:

You know, the first day of school

they're saying to him yeah, well if

587

:

ever you need help you can just ask us.

588

:

You know, this was the so called bright

kids who had come and taken their

589

:

kindergarten test before kindergarten

because they were in the neighborhood and

590

:

the parents all knew what was on the test

unlike the Kids who were bused in, they

591

:

didn't know, their parents didn't know,

they thought it was like kindergarten

592

:

when they went to kindergarten.

593

:

And so Tavon's mom wrote a note

saying he really loves the dress

594

:

up corner and he doesn't, he isn't

a crier and all these things.

595

:

Like it was back in the old kindergartens.

596

:

Yeah.

597

:

At the, the neighborhood parents.

598

:

They knew that the kids were going

to be tested, and they primed them.

599

:

And the kids who scored

real, real high, the teacher

600

:

referred to as the bright kids.

601

:

Bright kids.

602

:

Yeah.

603

:

So, so I hadn't taken those

kind of timed tests before.

604

:

He wanted to talk about everything.

605

:

Oh, this letter is in, it's in my name.

606

:

And you know, it's timed.

607

:

So he ended up with a very low score.

608

:

Wow.

609

:

They didn't always score the other kids.

610

:

They just, they just absorbed

what, what's in the air.

611

:

Yeah, yeah, that's interesting.

612

:

So that, that, those pieces,

I mean, so, did anything about

613

:

that research surprise you?

614

:

I mean, just across your research

and you know, And your career,

615

:

have, have there been any surprises?

616

:

Things that you didn't really expect

that you would find or just nugget?

617

:

I don't know.

618

:

What do you think?

619

:

I think that I'm always surprised

because I, but always happy

620

:

surprises up until that project.

621

:

You know, like just the things kids

would say or the insights I would get.

622

:

And I would think, Oh,

I'm so lucky I saw this.

623

:

Oh my goodness.

624

:

And then I just really

enjoyed telling those stories.

625

:

In fact, I brought a story today.

626

:

It's from the social world book

that I thought, well, if I get

627

:

a chance to tell the story.

628

:

Yeah.

629

:

Tell it, tell it.

630

:

We want to hear it.

631

:

I'll tell it, but first

I'll answer this question.

632

:

So I went to, When I went to Devon's

class, I, I knew, I mean, I'd see, I'd

633

:

seen things and certainly in the Oakland

Berkeley area where I'd been working,

634

:

I'd seen, you know, I, I've seen things,

but I also saw that the kids, if the

635

:

teacher was good, the kids had a sense

of being in a class community, but when

636

:

they chose their friends, the black

kids and the white kids did separate.

637

:

Because of that.

638

:

And they were so different, really.

639

:

The Black kids English was different.

640

:

They're, I just love the verbal play.

641

:

Yeah, yeah.

642

:

They're so quick.

643

:

Not all of them, but, you know, the

ones who are quick, they're really fun.

644

:

And I don't know.

645

:

I just I was just always surprised by

things that would happen and they were

646

:

always good things that surprised me.

647

:

But when I went to Devon school,

I knew about when I, I had never

648

:

been, Not as a kid, not as a

teacher, not as a researcher,

649

:

in a predominantly white class.

650

:

They were always very diverse.

651

:

So, and I knew things happened, but

when they came up to him and said, the

652

:

so called brighter kids, and said, if

you ever need help, we'll help you.

653

:

He didn't know what to say,

and I thought, oh my god.

654

:

Well, maybe this is just a

fluke, but it kept happening.

655

:

It kept happening.

656

:

And it was clear that he was not regarded

as what he was, which is a very smart,

657

:

very polite, although the The teachers

cued in to the fact that this is a nice

658

:

kid, but they didn't cue in to all his

resources and all he knew, and this

659

:

was a surprise to me, that And then

I realized it was all because they're

660

:

looking for these skills, because they

have to give all these tests, tests,

661

:

tests, all on these very isolated skills.

662

:

So in the kindergarten,

it was letters and sounds.

663

:

And But she had them right,

and she, she liked him.

664

:

I know she did.

665

:

But she really saw her job as

to teach these objectives, and

666

:

they were all benchmarked, and

they were all tested constantly.

667

:

So she was definitely looking at him

from the point of view of the skills

668

:

that were listed, but he, that isn't

the way that he approached writing.

669

:

And actually by mid year, he, he,

she said he, he writes much better

670

:

than the bright kids, but just saying

that, oh, yeah, he wasn't bright.

671

:

Yeah.

672

:

And he did learn to write, but

not according to the way they.

673

:

I thought he should learn to write, but

How was that for you as a, you know, as

674

:

a teacher and as a social justice person?

675

:

I mean, I know in the spirit of

ethnography, you can't really,

676

:

you know, How did you interact?

677

:

Like, how did, were you, were you stunned?

678

:

Were you shocked when those

comments, what did you do?

679

:

Were you just like you know,

how did you, how did you I, I,

680

:

first of all, I trusted him.

681

:

He, he didn't, he was never mean back.

682

:

And they, they thought they

were being kind, I think.

683

:

Yeah.

684

:

They thought they were being nice.

685

:

They didn't realize that

they had absorbed the.

686

:

Yeah.

687

:

Culture.

688

:

Yeah, sure.

689

:

Which, you know, just before

I, because they're doing all

690

:

this narrow testing, they.

691

:

They, that list, that checklist, the

bright and the not so bright that

692

:

reinforces a sense of hierarchy and

who's on the top and who's on the bottom.

693

:

And it just constructs the so

called achievement gap, which

694

:

the schools themselves create.

695

:

It's not that there aren't problems

associated with poverty, et cetera.

696

:

But nonetheless, most of the

kids, I think, are just fine.

697

:

But the curriculum doesn't

build on what they know.

698

:

It says, well, this one doesn't know this.

699

:

They don't know this.

700

:

And then it keeps track of,

you know, What they don't know.

701

:

Yeah.

702

:

I, I think, well, how is that fair?

703

:

How is that fair?

704

:

It isn't fair.

705

:

Yeah.

706

:

They are constructing the

very thing they're worried

707

:

about, the achievement gap.

708

:

So that, that really crystallized

for me when I did that.

709

:

long project of spending all those

years with Tevon and, but there was a

710

:

happy surprise because in second grade,

you know, I wrote, I wrote in the one

711

:

piece about how they had, they, In the

second grade, they had the they had

712

:

the Ledecky Arts Writing Time, which

was all tied to the textbook, and where

713

:

they had to write all these genres,

and they had to include these words.

714

:

Like, if it was a narrative, it should

be first, and then, And then, if it

715

:

was non fiction, there were other

words they were supposed to use.

716

:

I can't remember what they were now

because I don't think I used them.

717

:

I went up on second grade, I think.

718

:

So, their, their texts were evaluated

according to these objectives that the

719

:

teacher was, you know, using these words.

720

:

But she had an open journal time,

which was, she never read them, but

721

:

they were just an activity for kids to

do when she was doing reading groups.

722

:

And in that, I saw him, what he

was learning about the blues.

723

:

And it was just amazing.

724

:

He knew all about the start of the blues.

725

:

He named all the blues.

726

:

People like Big Mama Thornton, he, and

he knew her songs, and he could sing like

727

:

her, and he wrote all he was learning.

728

:

Yeah, it was just amazing.

729

:

And then sometimes he would write

lyrics, and he would sing them.

730

:

And other kids would hear this,

he would sing them very quietly,

731

:

but they would hear this.

732

:

And then, During lessons, he would

listen and he, he, he learned

733

:

everything, but he would be doing

rhythms, blues like rhythms on his,

734

:

patting his legs, sometimes his arms.

735

:

Once in a while, his

hands, like really quietly.

736

:

He was just full of music.

737

:

It was just amazing.

738

:

And his journal was, I

was just flabbergasted.

739

:

And I had, I read a lot of books

on the blues, so I could, I could

740

:

appreciate what he was saying.

741

:

And it was just, Amazing.

742

:

And I kept thinking about, well, you

know, if she, I tried to talk to her.

743

:

She said, Oh yes, I

know he's a good singer.

744

:

I thought, Oh yes, but he knows a lot.

745

:

But anyway, if she would just have

looked, they were trying to write

746

:

non, nonfiction, one of the second.

747

:

Her main objective was to write

non fiction, but if she had given

748

:

him a book appreciation and made

space for him, think about the

749

:

non fiction things he was writing.

750

:

Yeah.

751

:

And a whole chapter book on

different kinds of blues singers.

752

:

And he had all kinds of narratives.

753

:

He knew the relationships between

some of the people like oh, I can't

754

:

think right now because I'm, it's

been too long since I watched him.

755

:

But there was a couple of blues singers

where the, the, they were brothers and one

756

:

had died and they had a big celebration.

757

:

And one blues singer had sung his songs.

758

:

And he knew this whole story.

759

:

Wow.

760

:

The whole story.

761

:

And he knew the story

about Natalie Cole, too.

762

:

He knew who his who her father had been.

763

:

He knew that she had had trouble with

drugs, but she was an amazing singer.

764

:

And.

765

:

He could have, he could have written

stories as narratives, but he didn't

766

:

get a chance, but he did write them,

and he wrote them in his own journal,

767

:

and he kept that up for months.

768

:

That's great.

769

:

And I, I just got, I got amazed by

him and I got mad at the school.

770

:

Yeah, I was going to ask you about that.

771

:

How did you reconcile that?

772

:

You know, what did you do with that?

773

:

I mean, just I'm wondering as a teacher,

as a researcher, how did you channel that?

774

:

I mean, through your writing, I know,

but how did you, how did you manage that?

775

:

That sounds like that

must have been intense.

776

:

It was, it was hard, but he was, he

was happy, he was a good kid, and he,

777

:

he, he, he took it all with good humor,

which sort of bothered me, but Something

778

:

else, else happened in second grade.

779

:

First of all, the teacher did this

thing that I think a lot of teachers

780

:

do, which I don't think they quite

think through before they do it.

781

:

They put a kid they regard as not bright

with a bright kid in seating, so that

782

:

the bright kid can help the other kid.

783

:

And that creates all kinds of, that just

reinforces the bright kid as themselves.

784

:

And it doesn't.

785

:

Allow for the fact that sometimes he not

like it may actually be pretty bright.

786

:

Yeah.

787

:

Yeah.

788

:

Yvonne, I often in that project,

we try to tell people things, you

789

:

know, that, hey, you know I'm right.

790

:

I, you're doing it wrong.

791

:

I don't know if I can find it, but

there was this one time when Dirk,

792

:

the teacher, I want to see if I can,

the teacher had asked the kid, she'd

793

:

given all the kids a sheet of paper

and one side was contractions and

794

:

the other side was the two words they

were made out of, like, cannot, and

795

:

then she asked them to match them.

796

:

She had to cut them out, cut out all

the pieces, and then match them, and I

797

:

don't know if I can find it real fast.

798

:

I'll just have to tell you, I think.

799

:

So the Dirk, who was the kid he was

always stuck with he came up with, I

800

:

found it, he came up with this idea

that, oh, you can just cut out these

801

:

columns and Pace them next to each other.

802

:

And Teon knew that wasn't right.

803

:

So I'm gonna read you this part.

804

:

The second graders were given a work.

805

:

You know, I'm not letting

you ask any question.

806

:

I love this.

807

:

No, I love . No, you're perfect.

808

:

. The second graders were given a worksheet

task in which they were to cut out each

809

:

of the box contractions in one list.

810

:

Like can't.

811

:

And each of the box two word

phrases in a second list will not.

812

:

Each list seemed to be randomly ordered.

813

:

On a separate paper they were to

match contractions and word phrase.

814

:

Dirk was thrilled because he had

thought up a quote shortcut unquote.

815

:

One could just cut out each

list and paste the two lists

816

:

as they were on another paper.

817

:

One shook his head.

818

:

They were supposed to cut out all the

little boxes and then, quote, sort

819

:

them and match them on the new sheet.

820

:

No, said Dirk, just cut the paper in half.

821

:

No, you, you have to match them.

822

:

Just do it like I'm doing it,

Dirk said firmly, and he put

823

:

his paper on the dung pile.

824

:

And Devon went back to his cutting list.

825

:

He just said, okay.

826

:

He would make side comments

to me all the time.

827

:

And I was happy because I could

see there were a couple of

828

:

other minoritized kids in there.

829

:

And I could see they were

pretty much defeated.

830

:

But Talal was never defeated.

831

:

He told me I'm smart.

832

:

He, he just, no, he was smart.

833

:

And he was smart.

834

:

But the bright, the so called bright

kids were just bright, you know.

835

:

And they would tell him things and he

would, he just didn't lose it over it.

836

:

He didn't lose it over it.

837

:

The end.

838

:

And his grandma put him in the,

had him try out for, and he got

839

:

in the regional Children's Choir.

840

:

Oh, that's lovely.

841

:

That's wonderful.

842

:

Wonderful.

843

:

It was just wonderful, and he loved it.

844

:

And they, they gave concerts in the,

the Krannert Center for the Arts.

845

:

It's a big performance place at

the university, and he was on.

846

:

He got to go there and

sing, and it was wonderful.

847

:

So, because he had his grandma, and

because he, he had the regional children's

848

:

choir, And because he, he also, his

grandma, his grandma had grown up in

849

:

New York and she lived at the same

block where Malcolm X lived for a while.

850

:

So she was very, very knowledgeable

about and had been active in

851

:

the civil rights movement.

852

:

And she taught all this to Tavon and his.

853

:

That's great, yeah.

854

:

The older, well the older sister

and the brother who was about his

855

:

same age she taught it to them with,

cause they stayed with her a lot.

856

:

They pretty much lived with her.

857

:

Yeah.

858

:

And he got very into, he knew

this and sometimes he wrote

859

:

about it in his own journal.

860

:

And.

861

:

He, he got very back into being black.

862

:

It wasn't that he wasn't into being

black, but he just, he just really

863

:

associated with the other black kids who

were spread out through all the classes.

864

:

I don't know why they did that.

865

:

Because it, I don't know why

they didn't put them together,

866

:

but anyway, they didn't.

867

:

And but they would meet

sometimes on the playground.

868

:

And, and he decided that he

wanted to grow his hair out again.

869

:

Because he had had braids in the

kindergarten, in the preschool.

870

:

But then they were cut off into an

afro when he went to first grade.

871

:

Bye.

872

:

In second grade, he decided he

wanted to grow his hair out.

873

:

And his hair was, it, it was pretty long

if you stretched it out, but he wanted to

874

:

grow it long enough to have braids again.

875

:

And he, he learned the Chicago Bob.

876

:

And the way he dressed and even the

way he walked changed and I just, I

877

:

just thought he's going to be okay.

878

:

Yeah.

879

:

He'll be okay.

880

:

And I just hope that you know, there'll

be teachers who will, who will, you know,

881

:

He'll get out of this school and he'll,

there'll be teachers who believe in him.

882

:

Yeah.

883

:

Did you ever, have you

ever wondered where he is?

884

:

I did keep up with him and I

kept visiting with him until once

885

:

he was at his parent's house.

886

:

That was his grandma.

887

:

And There was a fight between his

dad, his mom, and the neighbors called

888

:

the police, and because his, and

the kids were taken out of the home.

889

:

Oh.

890

:

And the problem was, I mean, he, he,

he had a home with his grandma, but in

891

:

Illinois, the grandparents have no power.

892

:

So I, I couldn't, I

couldn't keep up with him.

893

:

Yeah.

894

:

Yeah.

895

:

But I really regretted it, but I know

pretty soon he's in middle school now

896

:

and I know in pretty soon, he will

be able to get a driver's license

897

:

and then I think he'll come see me.

898

:

I love that.

899

:

I love that.

900

:

I love that.

901

:

I think he's out of my life forever.

902

:

Oh good.

903

:

Close friends.

904

:

Yeah.

905

:

I was an adult.

906

:

I don't try not to be an adult, but I am

a friend and that's how he introduced me.

907

:

Nice.

908

:

So I think he's not gone.

909

:

I love that.

910

:

I love that, that you have

a connection with him.

911

:

Always.

912

:

I mean, I, I find that so fascinating.

913

:

So I was going to ask you too, so.

914

:

How about given your career,

striving to transform thinking,

915

:

how about what's your current view

or current advice to the field?

916

:

Well, that's a tough one, but I think that

until I just retired, but like I said,

917

:

I don't notice any difference really.

918

:

I don't notice any difference at

all, but I think if I get a chance,

919

:

what's my current view of the field?

920

:

If I look at what's going on in the

local schools, I feel like, oh god,

921

:

we're back to the old, the old, what

would they call it, the new science

922

:

of reading, which is very, very old.

923

:

Yeah, yeah.

924

:

Very, very old.

925

:

And we're back to the tension between the,

the, well, whatever you're going to call

926

:

it, the whole language and the, the whole

language and the, what do they call it?

927

:

Yeah.

928

:

Language and phonics is

basically what it is.

929

:

But they call it, or

whole word, or context.

930

:

Don't teach kids to use context.

931

:

Which I find funny.

932

:

Yeah.

933

:

I certainly use it.

934

:

I do too.

935

:

Anyway, because the tests are

all about letters and sounds.

936

:

Of course the kids, that's

what they've been taught, that

937

:

they'll probably do better.

938

:

But it's so unfair, and it's so stupid.

939

:

I even saw something

in the New York Times.

940

:

I get the Times online.

941

:

I get the local paper for the

school news, but it's not very good.

942

:

But I like the school news,

and I like the puzzles.

943

:

I like word puzzles.

944

:

Huh.

945

:

So anyway.

946

:

What was I saying?

947

:

Oh, the New York Times had something

about, well, the new science of

948

:

reading, and I said, what on the hell?

949

:

It's not new.

950

:

Oh, science.

951

:

We've had this off and on for years,

and yet, when I think about what

952

:

have we learned in the years, I think

we've learned that Literacy is very

953

:

complicated social practice that kids

enter into it first through their play.

954

:

If they have those opportunities to play

and they Enter into it by by reading,

955

:

although they're not reading words

exactly, they're reading the pictures

956

:

and what they remember, especially

if it's been read to them many times.

957

:

And we know kids may come from many

different kinds of literacy practices,

958

:

so we have to figure out what they

think of when they think of it.

959

:

And we have to start with what they

know, whatever it is, and go from there.

960

:

And I, I think that's what

I've learned over the years.

961

:

And I, I, I look at the schools and I

think, but why didn't they learn it?

962

:

Where have they been?

963

:

Why, why, why the new science of reading,

especially in schools that teach kids

964

:

that are coming from low- income homes.

965

:

They're going to really drill

on that because that's what the

966

:

tests are going to be about.

967

:

And I think it's a shame.

968

:

Yeah.

969

:

Yeah, that's, yeah.

970

:

So I think.

971

:

If we just keep our noses in

academe, it seems like, oh well, yes.

972

:

But in the school, it's becoming

very, very hard for even

973

:

knowledgeable teachers to teach if

they're in very band aided systems.

974

:

If the kids have to be tested all the

time, which they do in the local schools.

975

:

Test, test, test.

976

:

I, I get discouraged.

977

:

I get discouraged.

978

:

So I think we, we have to keep talking

not just to each other but to the public

979

:

and I want to participate in that now

that I'll I, I, I assume at some point all

980

:

these people are going to get through all

these dissertations sitting at my desk.

981

:

They're so popular.

982

:

I, I don't know, but anyway, I think

I have found a local after school

983

:

neighborhood program that is open to

kids of all ages, including really

984

:

little ones, and I, Oh, that's wonderful.

985

:

Beginning next week when I

think two people will be done,

986

:

of the two people I have.

987

:

I'm going to volunteer there, and I'm

sure I'll meet the parents who will.

988

:

Oh, that's great.

989

:

And so, I hope to at least locally.

990

:

Oh, they'll be so lucky.

991

:

They'll be so lucky to

have you in their life.

992

:

But I, I want to start, I don't want

to, I want to talk to the public.

993

:

The public should be upset.

994

:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

995

:

And I, I just think that that's a problem.

996

:

I think it's a problem.

997

:

Well, you are just an amazing

Just an amazing person.

998

:

And I just, you know, want to

thank you so much for your work

999

:

and the work you continue to do.

:

01:04:24,663 --> 01:04:28,713

It's just, I love that you're an

advocate for children and their worlds.

:

01:04:28,713 --> 01:04:34,553

I feel like we so need that in the,

in we so need that, that voice.

:

01:04:34,573 --> 01:04:38,743

And so I just, I just want to say,

thank you for just being so awesome.

Next Episode All Episodes Previous Episode

Listen for free

Show artwork for Getting Smarter

About the Podcast

Getting Smarter
The podcast where knowledge meets curiosity. Join professor Margaret Vaughn as she explores groundbreaking ideas with top scholars, aimed at sharpening our thinking. With her guests, Dr. Vaughn dives into a world of profound insights and intellectual adventure. Our journey to getting smarter starts here.

About your host

Profile picture for Margaret Vaughn

Margaret Vaughn

Margaret Vaughn, PhD. is a professor in the Department of Teaching and Learning at Washington State University. As a literacy researcher and former classroom educator, she recognizes the valuable role of teacher input and decision making in policy and practice and supports efforts to develop equity-focused learning environments. She is an advocate for student agency and works both nationally and internationally to discuss the role of student agency in learning environments. She is the recipient of several awards including the American Educational Research Association’s Review of Research Award as well as the Association of Teacher Educator’s Distinguished Research in Teacher Education and is a US Fulbright Specialist. Her award-winning research addresses issues of teacher practice and contemporary educational issues. She has published numerous articles on developing agentic focused literacy practices, adaptive instruction, and teacher visioning as well as books such as, Accelerating Learning Recovery for All Students: Core Principles for Getting Literacy Growth Back on Track (Guilford Press), Teaching with Children’s Literature: Theory to Practice (Guilford Press), Student Agency: Honoring Student Voice in the Curriculum (Teachers College Press), Overcoming Reading Challenges: Kindergarten through Middle School and co-editor of Principles of Effective Literacy Instruction, Grades K-5 (Guilford Press).