Episode 6

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Published on:

29th Mar 2024

S01E06. James V. Hoffman, Ph.D.

James Hoffman is a Professor of Language and Literacy at The University of North Texas and currently serves as the Meadows Endowed Chair for Literacy. Dr. Hoffman is a former editor of The Reading Research Quarterly and The Yearbook of the National Reading Conference.

He has served as President of the National Reading Conference and as a member of the Board of Directors of the International Reading Association. Dr. Hoffman was an affiliated scholar with both the National Reading Research Center and the Center for the Improvement of Early Reading Achievement. He was elected to the Reading Hall of Fame in 2002 and served as President of this organization from 2008-2010.

Dr. Hoffman served as the chair for the International Reading Association’s Commission and the “Prepared to Make a Difference” research project. He has been active in international literacy projects in Central American, Africa and Asia. This past year he was awarded the Oscar Causey lifetime achievement award for research in literacy by the Literacy Research Association. The primary focus for his research has been on teaching and teacher preparation. Dr. Hoffman has published more than 150 articles, books and chapters on literacy related topics. He completed the Ph.D. at the University of Missouri at Kansas City.

Transcript
Margaret Vaughn:

Hello listeners.

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Hi, I'm Dr.

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Margaret Vaughn and welcome to

Getting Smarter, a podcast where

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I get to talk with some of the

most transformational thinkers and

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leaders in the field of education,

all in the hopes of getting smarter.

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Join me in listening and learning.

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Well, welcome.

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Today we have Dr.

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James V.

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Hoffman visiting us today and

I'm so excited and welcome.

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Welcome Dr.

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Hoffman.

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How are you?

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Jim Hoffman: I am great, and I am excited

to be part of this, particularly since

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I recognized that my, my, my longtime

mentor, Jerry Duffy, was the first

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of your, first of your participants.

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I

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Margaret Vaughn: love it.

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I love it.

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And you are just a huge fan of mine.

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So I'm going to go ahead and read your,

your biography because it's just amazing.

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So I'm going to get us

started and read it.

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So, Dr.

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Hoffman served as a member of the

reading literacy faculty at the

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University of Texas at Austin for 43

years, with an additional four years.

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at the University of North Texas.

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He is a former editor of the Reading

Research Quarterly and the yearbook

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of the National Reading Conference.

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He has served as the president of the

National Reading Conference and as a

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member of the board of directors of

the International Reading Association.

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Dr.

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Hoffman was an affiliated scholar

with both the National Reading

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Research Center and the Center for the

Improvement of Early Reading Achievement.

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He was elected to the Reading Hall of

Fame in:

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of this organization from 2008 to 2010.

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Dr.

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Hoffman also served as the chair for

the International Reading Association's

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commission and the Prepare to Make

a Difference research project.

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He has been an active member, he

has been so active in international

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literacy projects in Central

America, Africa, and Asia.

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The primary focus for his research has

been on teaching and teacher preparation.

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In 2018, he received the Literacy

Research Association's Oscar

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Causey Award for Outstanding

Contributions to Reading Research.

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Dr.

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Hoffman has published over 150 articles,

books, and chapters on literacy related

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topics, and he served as a first and fifth

grade teacher in Milwaukee Public Schools,

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and as a reading specialist with Overseas

Dependent School System in Zybrookin, I'm

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Jim Hoffman: Rukin.

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I'm Rukin.

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Margaret Vaughn: In

Germany, I practice that.

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He is currently Professor Emeritus

at the University of Texas at Austin,

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and one of my favorite, favorite

scholars and people of all time.

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And I can't stop smiling.

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So welcome, welcome, welcome.

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I'm so happy that you're here.

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Jim Hoffman: It's so good to see you,

Margaret, and I'm excited to be here.

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I, thank you for sharing the questions.

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I have not prepared

answers to the questions.

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So I'm, as you said, I hope it turns

more into a conversation and things

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that I think it might be of interest.

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I would invite you to turn that

into a discussion conversation.

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So

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Margaret Vaughn: I just love it.

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Well, you really are like, Just

a kind of a quick connection.

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The first time I met you was on, uh,

in Jerry's class, Jerry Duffy's class.

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And it was before I even had gone

to LRA, because I was a classroom

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teacher, and you had guest skyped

at the time, was like all the rage.

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And you had, Jerry had skyped you

in, which was kind of an amazing

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thing, too, because Jerry, you know,

uh, he used the technology to skype

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you in, and that was really fun.

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And I just remember, just

the, uh, The rapport you and

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he had and just the insight.

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And I was just an immediate fan.

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And I think it was just pretty

early on in the program.

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And so I don't know, back,

I'm just, it's like, I always,

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uh, I, I have to stop smiling.

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I know my cheeks are going to hurt,

but I'm just so happy that you're here

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and it's, it's just so delightful.

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So I wondered before we get

started, so why did you go

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into the field of education?

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I, I, we, you know,

what, what, Why teaching?

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Jim Hoffman: I never ever thought

of myself as becoming a teacher.

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That was never.

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I am.

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There are no teachers in my family.

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There were no.

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I mean, it is, um, it was just not.

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I mean, I hear all of the stories

that people tell about their path into

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teaching, and it's usually a family

member or mentor their mother or dad or,

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um, something that they want to do since

they were in second grade or something.

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I, I had absolutely no thought

or desire to go into teaching.

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Um, I was, um, an economics major

in college, um, small Benedictine

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college and it's, uh, economics major.

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And I was there from 1962

through:

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And during that time period

there was a lot going on.

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Um, obviously Vietnam

War was quite a, quite a.

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quite present, particularly toward

the latter part of that period.

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Um, and also Kennedy and

the, uh, Peace Corps.

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So when I heard about the Peace

Corps and, uh, and thought about,

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well, that's something I could do,

um, I decided that I wanted to do.

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So I, I, um, applied for and ended

up as a Peace Corps volunteer in Peru

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and Ecuador for, um, Yeah, for 2.

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5 years.

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Um, and that was an amazing experience

and one that I think has shaped my work.

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It wasn't an education.

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I wasn't in teaching.

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I was more in community

development, working rural areas.

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Um, so it wasn't that the direct

experience in the Peace Corps

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affected my decision to go into

teaching, but I think it affected

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my perspective on a lot of things.

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Um, and, and I, and I carry those

forward in terms of almost all of

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the work that I've, that I've done,

uh, toward the end of Peace Corps.

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Um, not sure again what I

was going to do with my life.

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I, uh, I heard about the Teacher Corps

and I had never heard of Teacher Corps,

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didn't know what Teacher Corps was,

but It sounded to me like this pathway,

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uh, from from being a Peace Corps

volunteer into working in urban areas

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and particularly in Latino communities.

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Um, and so I signed up and

became a member of Teacher Corps.

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Um, and that Teacher Corps

experience was in Milwaukee.

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And it was about 2 years.

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Um, it was the old teacher core.

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It was a way of, uh, initially trying

to attract, uh, people who had degrees

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and things other than education

into working in urban schools,

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uh, and in low income communities.

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And so, uh, I signed up

and that's what I did.

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Milwaukee was a little Milwaukee has

quite as a large Latino community

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and that's where my school was.

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And the teacher core experience is

something that again affected the

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ways in which I view teacher education

because it was pioneering in the way

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of 1 3rd of the time was spent in your

academic coursework with UWM 1 3rd

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of your time was spent in classrooms

in your school and 1 3rd of your time

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was spent working in the community.

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Um, and you had to live within

eight blocks of the school

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that you were working in.

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Um, it was a very, very tight

cohort of, of people who came to,

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uh, teaching through that path.

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And it was a remarkable sort of, I

think in many ways, I have, I have

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tried to replicate that experience

in my work, um, in terms of all

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the features that were part of that

initial teacher core experience.

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And it's very, I mean, in many ways.

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It was a, um, it was an experience

like what people are doing

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today with internships and

with, uh, residency programs.

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But I still think there are some

really important differences between

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what teacher core was and Uh, and

what residency programs are today.

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So once I got into an elementary

classroom, once I got into first grade,

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Margaret Vaughn: what was that like?

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Jim Hoffman: I was captured.

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I knew that that's what I wanted to do.

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And that was going to be my life.

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I did not anticipate at that point

ever thinking about higher ed.

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Um, I just wanted to be

a first grade teacher.

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Um, and I loved every minute of it.

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And Milwaukee was very innovative.

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Um, I, I think historically looking

back on what was happening in Milwaukee

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public schools, um, with language

experience and non graded primaries

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and all the things that were part of

the school system at that time were

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incredibly innovative and longstanding.

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Um, and so I stayed there, worked in first

grade and moved up to fifth grade for a

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couple of years and then went overseas

and decided to try out my, my career.

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Master's degree in reading,

uh, as a reading specialist.

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And, and then after that came the

opportunity to go to my doctoral program.

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Wow.

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Margaret Vaughn: Well, I knew I'm,

so I'm a former first grade teacher.

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So I wonder if that's the, like

the in awe of you that I have

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that that's, it's fascinating too,

that you decided to go overseas.

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Was that like based, do you feel like

on the experience with the Peace Corps?

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Did you just have like this, this

energy to get out there and go back out?

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Jim Hoffman: I think, I think it was,

I was, um, I, I had, I don't think I'd

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ever even been to Europe at that point.

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Um, and so it was an opportunity.

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I mean, it was, it was motivated by an

interest in working internationally, which

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I've always that's if you just trace my

career, my international work has been.

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constant and consistent

because I value that.

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I value, I always value that notion

of stepping out and then looking back

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in, um, and coming back different.

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And so it, it always, it always, it

always takes me in that direction that

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I become more Were critical, um, and

more circumspect, I guess, about the way

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things are and the way things could be.

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So, um, yeah, and it was, it was the

opportunity to be a reading specialist.

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Also, that was something I was

getting more and more interested in.

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And so it was being a reading specialist.

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In the department in in that in the dot

school system was something that I, it

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was an opportunity that we just took up.

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And again, it was a very, very

innovative approach to using

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reading specialists in schools.

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Um, so it was not at all working

with individual kids all of that way.

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Again, it was kind of divided

in a third of the time you were

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supposed to be working with kids.

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But mostly you're working with classrooms,

working with teachers, working with

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school programs, school reading program.

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Um, and so the innovative way of

thinking about what reading specialists

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do that I experienced there, I

brought back as part of my sort of.

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Won't wish to work, continue to work

in graduate programs, uh, working with

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those who are moving toward, uh, reading

specialist, uh, sort of positions.

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Margaret Vaughn: That's

so fascinating, Jim.

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So tell me a little bit about, um,

I mean, you've just been involved in

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so many amazing everything, right?

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Board of directors work,

your, your leadership work.

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So I, I wonder a little bit about

that part of it in terms of like being

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involved in Sierra and, you know, how,

how How, like, how did those come about?

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I mean, I know that you're, how did

that, that work happen for you, kind of,

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as you were, as you were starting off?

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Jim Hoffman: You know, that's a, I

hadn't, maybe you rephrased that question.

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I didn't think about it quite that way.

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Um, let me back up just a little bit.

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Because I went to UMKC, which is a

very, University of Missouri, Kansas

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City, very small doctoral program,

but it had an amazing reading faculty.

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And, and I, at that time, got hooked

up with, uh, two faculty members,

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um, One was David Allen, uh, who,

I don't you, you might not know.

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David Allen.

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David Dave was, um, in the language

arts area of, uh, the program at UNKC.

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Um, and he was a Ken.

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Good Ken.

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And he had a good student.

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He was one of the mis qts.

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The original qt, yeah.

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N/A: Yeah.

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Jim Hoffman: So he brought with

him all of these perspectives.

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On language and literacy that were

for me at that time were remarkably

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different from the ways in which

I had thought about reading.

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And his, he, sadly, he was my, he

was my major professor, but sadly he

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got he was killed in an accident and

right in the transition of my main

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program moving into my dissertation.

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That's

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N/A: horrible.

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Jim Hoffman: Cutting his

hedges with clippers, clipped

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a wire, and was electrocuted.

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So, very sad.

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And, and sometimes I, I wonder

about my career path, um, if he

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had continued to be part of it.

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But he, he is always a part

of me and what I do because of

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N/A: his

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Jim Hoffman: philosophy.

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His, I took a seminar class with him

and he, he always, he had this top

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shelf in his, um, in his office and

he said, these are my top shelf books.

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These are the books that

brought me to where I am.

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And he said, I want you to read

all those books and every week

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we'll come together and we'll talk.

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Um, and that was, it's still

the most amazing seminar class

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I've ever participated in.

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There was one other doctoral student

that was with me, uh, that took my class.

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So that's where my introduction to

Bogotsky, my introduction to everything

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came through that experience.

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But in the meantime, as a graduate

student trying to earn a living,

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um, I worked with Ron Carver.

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So Ron had, um, had just come to UMKC, um,

came very, came from AIR, um, had, was,

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um, an amazing person, an amazing friend,

um, and the exact opposite of Dave Allen

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in terms of How he thought about reading.

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So, um, I'm not sure if people who

listen to this will recognize Ron Carver,

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but Ron was the spearhead of SSSR.

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He organized, he created that, uh,

he was a very adamant psychologist,

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educational psychologist and researcher,

uh, I'm very focused on, um, on,

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um, post positivist kind of research

methods, statistics, and so on.

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And so what my preparation was from

his side was a way of understanding

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research that I would have, I don't think

I would have gotten with anyone else.

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Both the research methods,

designs, statistics, Um, thinking

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in those quantitative sort of

realms, um, and with those tools,

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Ron was enormously influential.

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In fact, my, my first publication

in RRQ was a publication with Ron

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Carver, um, looking at a version

of repeated readings using a system

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that he had, uh, he had developed.

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Um, so those, I came,

I came out with this.

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Very sort of divided sort of worldview,

um, between, uh, Dave Allen and, and,

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and those people who are more focused

on child-centered pedagogies, um,

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and the Ron Carvers of the world.

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Uh, so I was a little schizoid.

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I had anticipated.

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I was anticipated going to a small

school, something like the one I

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graduated with and sort of living out

my career, um, doing the work of a

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teacher educator, but it is small non

research institution that changed when

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I was, um, when I graduated and applied.

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To do some schools, and I was

hired at the University of Texas.

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And so that immediately raised the

bar in terms of what I was going

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to do and who I was going to be

where I work and that relationship.

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So, I'm actually getting your

question, the relationship that I

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had at the University of Texas with

the faculty there, Connie jewel,

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Nancy Rosa, just go down the line.

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Just amazing, amazing people.

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Um, sort of up the ante and up the game

in terms of what I was going to be doing.

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Um, and how engaged I was going

to be in sort of scholarly

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communities like LRA, like IRA.

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Um, that, that, that sort

of led me along that path.

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And from there, I, I

think it always works.

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Through connections.

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Uh, the, the, the, the other big part

of the University of Texas was at

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that time, the University of Texas R

and D Center for teacher education.

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Um, it was there at UT Austin.

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Um, and this actually gets into my

relationship with Jerry because I was

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working with the, because I, I reached out

into that R and D community and started

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working part time with the R and D center.

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My work in teacher ed began to

connect me up with the other.

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The other R and D centers

around the country and people

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were doing that kind of work.

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So Jerry's work, um, at, at

Michigan with the, what was

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the, what was his center called?

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It wasn't the Center for

Research on Teaching.

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It was the Center for

Research on Teaching.

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Um, so, but Jerry, within that community

of people who were studying teaching was

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Jerry, who was also studying teaching,

but also very interested in teacher

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education and teacher development.

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And plus you had the innovative

program going on at Michigan State.

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That was something that I locked

into right away because This

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is what I want to do at Texas.

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Um, and so that relationship, I guess

from that relationship with Jerry and from

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other networks that I was establishing,

um, that, that became, that got me into,

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it gave me opportunities to engage and

connect with particular kinds of work.

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Um, I had started with

LRA, with Ron Carver.

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19.

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It was the first LRA

conference was in Kansas City.

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It had never been in Kansas City before.

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Really?

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Um

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N/A: huh.

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Jim Hoffman: And it's the only

time it was in Kansas City.

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Um, and that must have been 1972 or 73.

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Wow.

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Um.

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Maybe 74, but, but I haven't

missed an LRA since then, or,

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uh, uh, NRC since that time.

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And you can't get involved in those

professional communities without

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building relationships in front.

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So, um, I was just fortunate.

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At every turn with the people that I've

worked with to get engaged with and

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connected and, and that's what happened

with the centers that I was involved

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with, um, both, uh, after Center for

Study of Reading sort of reconstituted

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and moved, um, I became involved with

them through Georgia and then through,

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um, through Michigan, um, but almost

always through connections, um, like

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everyone else, I ended up with a very good

relationship with, With David Pearson.

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And when you're with David, there's

always things are always happening.

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Uh, so, uh, that that those

people were very important to

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me as mentors in my career.

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Um, and what I was able to do.

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Now, none of them were specific

to the kind of work that I was,

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well, Jerry was, um, to the kind

of research that I was doing.

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So the different projects and different

focus points, um, were influenced

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by ideas within the profession,

other people within the profession

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that I was beginning to connect to.

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Margaret Vaughn: Wow.

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Jim Hoffman: I haven't gotten

to any of your questions.

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Oh no.

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Margaret Vaughn: Yeah, you have.

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Totally.

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I, I, I think that, uh, the pathway, and

I love the way that you connected earlier,

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scholars for you, earlier teachers that

you had that were such huge mentors.

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I found that to be um,

such a wonderful tribute.

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And also just how they've, you know,

these people leave imprints that

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stay with you after all the years.

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And I, I love that you make those

connections to those early times when

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you were, When you were a student and how

that really influenced you and your work.

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I, I, I find that fascinating that doing

this, through this process, that there

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are teachers that influence us that

continue to help propel us forward.

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It just kind of that recursive

circle that happens in the work.

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Jim Hoffman: And to build on that a

little bit is I don't want to leave

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out the influence that my students

and the students I've worked with.

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And my colleagues, my colleagues, but also

the students that I've worked with over

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the years have had on the work that I did.

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I mean, it's their enthusiasm,

their insight, their, their sort of

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critical friend stance sometimes,

um, was enormously influential.

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I've just gone through and

been able to work with amazing,

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amazing doctoral students.

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Um, almost all of them who were working

with me, not Just on research, but

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also in the teacher education program

and that we set up at UT Austin.

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So, so all of them, I think there were

quite a few first grade, former first

364

:

grade teachers, but all of them have

have really done a lot to shape to

365

:

shape studies to shape work to shape the

pathways that I've been involved with.

366

:

Margaret Vaughn: Oh, I just love it.

367

:

I mean, there's so many

that we can talk about.

368

:

So, you talked, you mentioned a lot about

your international experiences, too.

369

:

So, uh, you know, what about

those that really stuck with you?

370

:

I mean, in terms of, I know that

you talked about ways of doing kind

371

:

of the reading specialist work.

372

:

Was there anything that you, you can think

about that really was similar across the

373

:

different sites you were at or different?

374

:

Like I wondered about some of the

different contexts and how that

375

:

influenced you and your thinking.

376

:

Jim Hoffman: I think so, so the

real spur to my international work

377

:

came as a board member of IRA.

378

:

So I had been, um, just, I don't

know, lucky at some point in my,

379

:

along the way to, um, have been

invited to run for as a board member.

380

:

Um, and.

381

:

I won that and went on to the

board and served on the board.

382

:

And at that time, it was an amazing board.

383

:

And we can talk about, I'm not sure,

on this agenda, but there's some

384

:

really exciting things happening.

385

:

Um, but at that time, it

was amazingly exciting.

386

:

Um, I was working, I think Harstie was on

the board at the time I was on the board.

387

:

Yet a good one was on the board.

388

:

Um, just amazing people.

389

:

Right.

390

:

And, uh, and one of the things that was

happening on the board at that time was,

391

:

um, was the IRA was being criticized

heavily for not being international.

392

:

It was really a U.

393

:

S.

394

:

based.

395

:

And the only reason that ever,

at least initially included the

396

:

international sort of title.

397

:

Was because of the relationship

Canada, um, and that's what that's

398

:

international United States again.

399

:

So while I was on the board, there

was a lot of pressure within IRA to

400

:

expand its international engagement,

um, across both in terms of of.

401

:

European countries and European reading

associations, et cetera, that existed to

402

:

expand that connection and build that,

but also to begin to work in international

403

:

development, um, in developing countries.

404

:

Um, and the first step in that was to

hire a director of international programs.

405

:

Um, and that was where I first

met Scott Walter and Scott

406

:

Walter was the first, I'm still.

407

:

very good friends with him.

408

:

In fact, I still work with him

and work with the organization

409

:

Code in Canada, uh, on projects

in Liberia and, uh, Sierra Leone.

410

:

Um, but at that time, Scott was brand new.

411

:

He had, um, was coming into ILA or

IRA at that time, not having any idea.

412

:

I mean, he, he's very engaging.

413

:

So, um, He can talk your, he can talk.

414

:

Um, but he really had no idea what

it was that we were going to do.

415

:

And the only thing that opened up, so we,

we got together and, and, uh, he pulled

416

:

together a group of XP score volunteers.

417

:

So, so Jerry Harstey's XP score,

uh, Jane Hanson's XP score.

418

:

Um, there, there are a number of sort of,

419

:

N/A: Oh, interesting.

420

:

I didn't know that.

421

:

Jim Hoffman: in reading and literacy that

went that Peace Corps route at some point.

422

:

So Scott's idea was to get together these

Peace Corps people, ex Peace Corps people,

423

:

and that we would plan an agenda for IRA.

424

:

Um, and it was, it was, and

the initial opportunity was to

425

:

work with Peace Corps itself.

426

:

Um, that fell through and nobody ever has

explained to me what fell through, but in

427

:

the meantime, we had three opportunities.

428

:

One was to work in Belize, because

Scott had done work in Belize, and so

429

:

it was using a project that Nancy Roser

and I had worked on, on language and

430

:

literacy, which was using trade books and

classrooms with tech sets and read alouds

431

:

and response and all of that, um, that

was an opportunity to do that in Belize.

432

:

The other opportunity was to work with

Charlie Temple, um, and Kurt Meredith

433

:

and Jeanne Steele were doing a project

in Czechoslovakia, um, on what was called

434

:

Reading, Writing, and Critical Thinking.

435

:

Um, and then the third

project was Project in Africa.

436

:

All three of those And I think that's

what's happened to the reading,

437

:

writing and critical thinking project.

438

:

I was not a part of, but that was

funded by the Soros Foundation.

439

:

It was in many, many, I

mean, name people in reading.

440

:

They were part of, they were often

part of that reading, writing, critical

441

:

thinking, which was working in Eastern

European countries in that breakdown of

442

:

the Soviet Union, and working with teacher

educators in that system to try to bring

443

:

more sort of democracy and, and, and.

444

:

prerogative and professionalism

into classrooms that teachers

445

:

were working in moving away

446

:

Margaret Vaughn: time.

447

:

That must have been amazing.

448

:

What an exciting time that must have been.

449

:

Jim Hoffman: It was huge.

450

:

Jerry did it.

451

:

I mean, it was they

basically took just people.

452

:

I mean, Tim Shanahan did it.

453

:

I mean, there were just a lot of people

that work and it was fairly short term.

454

:

It was typically I think it was doing

workshops with this reading, writing

455

:

for critical thinking, um, initiative.

456

:

They had some modules that they used.

457

:

Um, so it was very successful and I was

never involved with it because I was

458

:

doing the Belize project, which also then

transitioned into the, the Africa project

459

:

because Scott had done work in Africa.

460

:

He had done, he had been a volunteer, I

believe in, um, In Swaziland, uh, so he

461

:

had some connections in South Africa,

so I went with him to South Africa to

462

:

meet with, um, South African educators

around possibilities of collaboration.

463

:

And then we, we began to work with

the Reed Educational Trust, who

464

:

had just been given, um, 50 million

or something by gold cleaners.

465

:

And basically it was that, you

know, that sort of social conscious

466

:

side of the extraction, uh, you

know, extraction businesses.

467

:

And they wanted to set up a

study that would, that would

468

:

work all over South Africa, in

all provinces, in all languages.

469

:

No, not all provinces, but but in

English that was in the English project.

470

:

Um, and in that project, we

worked with schools everywhere.

471

:

Um, and what they asked us to do was to

build the assessment for that project.

472

:

Uh, so the assessment tools, they had

an intervention, Read Educational Trust

473

:

had a lot of connection with, um, with

folks from Australia, uh, very, very,

474

:

I, I don't use the word whole language,

but very, but, but, but probably in that

475

:

direction of what they were trying to

do, um, in classrooms with, with quality

476

:

literature, um, in, in, in schools.

477

:

And when we did this, that's

where my partnership with David

478

:

Pearson happened, because he and I,

Directed the, uh, the evaluation.

479

:

It was a five year evaluation

study of that project.

480

:

And so we were, I mean, I was going

to South Africa five times a year.

481

:

Sometimes usually the

trips were two weeks.

482

:

Sometimes they were longer.

483

:

Um, so it was a very

intensive five years of work.

484

:

Um, but focus on primary grades.

485

:

Primary grade reading instruction, um,

and the effects of working with teachers

486

:

and, and, and teacher preparation,

teacher education and service

487

:

teacher education, uh, around that.

488

:

Um, and so then from that project.

489

:

Misty and I became partners, um, and we

saw an opportunity to work with USAID,

490

:

um, in a project that was bringing,

uh, bringing, um, minority serving

491

:

institutions to work in countries in,

in Africa, and there was an opening for

492

:

a partnership to work in South Africa,

and since we already had a partner

493

:

there, And Misty was at UT San Antonio,

which is a minority serving institution.

494

:

We were able to apply and were awarded

another four year grant, um, working

495

:

with in South Africa, but working in

language, looking, working in, uh,

496

:

indigenous languages, the nine indigenous

languages and developing books.

497

:

So there was a lot

498

:

N/A: of

499

:

Jim Hoffman: book development authors sort

of in teachers as authors of those books.

500

:

So we did a lot of workshops with teachers

in which we created these books and ended

501

:

up, I don't know, nine million books were

distributed, um, through the classrooms,

502

:

fourth, five, and six, mainly focused on,

um, focused on content area, indigenous

503

:

languages, but working in the areas of

science, mathematics, and social studies.

504

:

Uh, it was a huge, huge, And then we did

again, another round of that project in

505

:

Malawi, which was another five years,

but we moved down into first grade

506

:

and second grade, third grade, which

was a lot more comfortable for us.

507

:

N/A: Yeah.

508

:

But

509

:

Jim Hoffman: again, book

development teachers.

510

:

And out of that came Mozambique.

511

:

Which has been, was a five year project

that we worked on, and that was more

512

:

focused on working in pre service teacher

education, and that was, that was sort

513

:

of being home, um, and excited about

being, the opportunity to work in teacher

514

:

ed, and we were able to bring people

to the states, take people there, um,

515

:

that's, that's been a great project.

516

:

That's a long answer again.

517

:

N/A: But

518

:

Jim Hoffman: all of that sort

of, International work, if you

519

:

add it up, it's about 20 years.

520

:

N/A: That's so cool.

521

:

Um,

522

:

Jim Hoffman: and, um, and in between

there were other projects working in

523

:

Thailand, working in Cambodia, working

in, and again, it's rooted in this sort

524

:

of desire to work internationally, to

learn, to grow, to learn from the people

525

:

there, to recognize the expertise.

526

:

And the challenges, uh, that you're

working with USAID, which tends to take

527

:

a very, like lots of, uh, international

aid tends to take a very deficit approach,

528

:

a very planner sort of stance towards,

yeah, we've got problems we need to fix.

529

:

And we have that expertise.

530

:

Um, when that didn't reflect

us and our perspective at

531

:

all, we were much more local.

532

:

Valuing of local expertise,

problem posing rather than

533

:

problem solving, all of the things

534

:

N/A: that

535

:

Jim Hoffman: we value in terms

of our work certainly came into

536

:

conflict with organizations,

and particularly with USAID.

537

:

You know, after 10 years of funding

from USAID, they totally bit into EGRA.

538

:

I don't know if you is that is

a term that it's, it's, it's

539

:

early grade reading assessment.

540

:

Basically, it's dibbles.

541

:

In fact, it is exactly the polls

exported from the States into, um,

542

:

into all developing countries that

are working on literacy and even up

543

:

to today, USA, not just USA, the World

Bank, um, and the Gates Foundation,

544

:

people that do international work

and teacher education and literacy.

545

:

Have totally swung to

546

:

N/A: and

547

:

Jim Hoffman: it is literally I mean

you can go and see projects where it's

548

:

it's simple view of reading, it's all

about, you know, right, it's all about

549

:

accuracy, it's all about reading words and

nonsense words and lists, just over and

550

:

over again until they read them faster.

551

:

I mean, it is the worst possible thing.

552

:

Margaret Vaughn: Out

of context culturally.

553

:

Jim Hoffman: In the end.

554

:

And I have a piece somewhere, I think

in RTE on, on Edgar and Dibbles.

555

:

I mean, it's, you know, why, why

are we exporting the worst of what

556

:

we've done with kids in classrooms,

um, into this international space?

557

:

And, uh, and yet it's

still hugely, hugely dumb.

558

:

Margaret Vaughn: Does that surprise you?

559

:

I mean, so in that work, was that a

surprise or did you, I mean, was there

560

:

anything about the work, I should

say, instead that surprised you?

561

:

Like were there.

562

:

Well,

563

:

Jim Hoffman: I, well, the, the, the, the

surprise was for us was not the, it wasn't

564

:

a surprise, uh, the idea that we were

gonna be working in this, this spans the

565

:

projects in Mozambique, Malawi, and, and,

um, in South Africa that we were gonna be

566

:

working with teachers to write books for

kids that would be used in instruction.

567

:

N/A: That's beautiful.

568

:

Jim Hoffman: That was met

with, that's not possible.

569

:

And there, there was kind of several.

570

:

forms of pushback.

571

:

One was from publishers, particularly in

South Africa, where there is an active

572

:

publishing community, that we were

disrupting something that, that, that is

573

:

their, their basal programs that they had.

574

:

Um, but the success that, so I wasn't,

we weren't surprised, but the success of

575

:

these teachers in writing these beautiful,

beautiful stories, important stories

576

:

based on their experience and, Taking

them through that writing process and

577

:

seeing the impact and seeing the quality

of the books that came out of that and

578

:

the use of the books in classrooms.

579

:

I don't want to say it was a surprise,

but it was certainly an affirmation that,

580

:

that, um, of the, the resources that are

there that are not being tapped into.

581

:

Um, and, and still even we, I don't know

if we fell short, but one of the things

582

:

we learned through that process was

the, and this is something that I feel

583

:

very strongly about today, that, that

the teachers that participated in those

584

:

workshops, and so it would end up to be

about a year of book, a year, a book, a

585

:

book would take a year or so to develop.

586

:

They were done in cohorts and they

were done in different languages.

587

:

Of course, we were facilitating English,

which was interesting, but, but.

588

:

That's another story.

589

:

But what we learned was that

those teachers were going back to

590

:

their classrooms and re engaging,

re imagining what writing looked

591

:

like in their own classrooms.

592

:

And they were, they were, they would come,

it wasn't part of the program, but they

593

:

would come back in their workshops and

talk about what they were doing in their

594

:

classrooms with their kids in writing.

595

:

Um, that's a surprise.

596

:

So that is a legitimate sort of,

um, Wow, this is amazing that seeing

597

:

that that sort of step for them

of seeing themselves as writers,

598

:

Margaret Vaughn: okay,

the transfer and being

599

:

Jim Hoffman: successful as writers

was something that they could

600

:

take back and with their kids.

601

:

Margaret Vaughn: Wow, that's fascinating.

602

:

Jim Hoffman: Yeah, it really was.

603

:

Margaret Vaughn: I'm curious now, just as

a, do you have any of the books with you?

604

:

I mean, do you have any, did you keep any?

605

:

Oh God, we've

606

:

Jim Hoffman: got, so yes, we have.

607

:

Okay.

608

:

Misty's, we've got them in boxes.

609

:

Okay.

610

:

I mean, one of the sad things is,

and this is typical of many projects,

611

:

that those, I mean, there were,

there were all kinds of issues.

612

:

We had classrooms at

schools, with schools.

613

:

Rural schools where that

distribution of books would happen.

614

:

They do the workshops.

615

:

The books, we visit the schools

and the books would be in

616

:

the principal's headteacher's

office, still in shrink wrap,

617

:

N/A: because

618

:

Jim Hoffman: they didn't

want the books stolen.

619

:

They didn't want to be, they didn't

want to be held accountable for

620

:

where, what, I mean, it was this way.

621

:

So, so we really faced challenges in terms

of the pedagogy and the shift in pedagogy.

622

:

Um, but, um, so I forgot

where I was going.

623

:

Oh, did we still have the books?

624

:

Yes.

625

:

And we've got.

626

:

But what I would hope is that those books

would be used and reproduced and so on.

627

:

Oh, I

628

:

N/A: love

629

:

Jim Hoffman: that.

630

:

The conditions are really, really hard.

631

:

I mean, we had, when we were working in

Malawi, we had, uh, in one year, a series

632

:

of floods in the southern part, um, and

all of the books in the schools, all

633

:

the schools were destroyed and all the

books in those schools were destroyed.

634

:

So, so it's, it's, It's a

challenging, it's a challenging

635

:

environment to be working in, um,

but, but teachers are amazing.

636

:

I mean, we would do, often we would do

read alouds, and that isn't a practice,

637

:

uh, in most classrooms, um, particularly

because some, well, particularly, there

638

:

aren't, there weren't the books, and class

sizes are enormous, so that was really

639

:

kind of a challenge for them to engage in

read aloud with, read alouds with kids.

640

:

Um, in the first couple of workshops, we,

we struggled until we realized that, Okay.

641

:

You know what this is like?

642

:

This is like storytelling, right?

643

:

So do any of you have

stories you'd like to tell?

644

:

And it was me.

645

:

I mean, we would sit in these workshops

and they could not wait to get in front

646

:

of the group and tell some random stories.

647

:

And we, we kept, and once we made

that connection that, that a good

648

:

read aloud is just a good storytelling

and you become that, they're not

649

:

shy and they have all this capacity

to work particularly in engaging an

650

:

audience as storytelling is going on.

651

:

It transferred beautifully

into their read alouds.

652

:

So once, once we sort of realized,

Oh, that's how we tap into their

653

:

expertise, they were great.

654

:

They're just amazing, amazing read alouds.

655

:

Best I've ever seen.

656

:

Best I've ever seen.

657

:

I love

658

:

Margaret Vaughn: it.

659

:

Jim Hoffman: Stuff, stuff

that we couldn't do.

660

:

I mean, how do you do a read aloud

with a hundred kids, yes, in, in, in,

661

:

in 400 square feet of a classroom?

662

:

Margaret Vaughn: Yeah,

663

:

Jim Hoffman: they could do it.

664

:

Margaret Vaughn: One of the things

that I find, I've been finding

665

:

interesting about doing this project

is some of the similarities, um, that

666

:

scholars have shared about being in

international sites and in the U.

667

:

S., Do you find similarities with

just teaching and teaching in

668

:

general or teachers in general?

669

:

Did you find any, did you find

yourself making any comparisons in

670

:

terms of like, wow, teaching in the U.

671

:

S.

672

:

is a lot like this or teachers abroad,

there's a, there's a common element

673

:

about teaching, you know, like a

common phenomena in terms of like

674

:

what teachers or teaching is about.

675

:

Like, I find that to be something

fascinating that I'm hearing sometimes.

676

:

Jim Hoffman: Yeah.

677

:

Wow.

678

:

I, I, we're cautious.

679

:

We're always cautious about comparisons,

um, because the resources and

680

:

the access to resources is just.

681

:

So, so different and to to not talk about

that in terms of the deficits, um, is

682

:

really something we work hard not to do.

683

:

Um, but I, so I, what I would say

in kind of puzzling through your

684

:

question, there's, there is no

question that the work that we've

685

:

done in teacher ed here is Thank you.

686

:

Is very much.

687

:

Let me, let me talk about the, the,

the other student things I want.

688

:

Well, let me talk about

the Mozambique project.

689

:

Mozambique, we're, we're, we're

working, we're working in, in, um,

690

:

teacher, teacher training colleges.

691

:

And so, in those teacher training

colleges are 22 of them across Mozambique.

692

:

Every one of them has an

elementary primary school on

693

:

the campus of the teacher.

694

:

Beautiful.

695

:

Perfect.

696

:

Zero contact.

697

:

There's no, oh, there's no contact

at all in the teacher education

698

:

program with that little school.

699

:

It's sitting right there.

700

:

They operate totally independently.

701

:

Um, and it's fascinating.

702

:

It's like, and so what we brought was

You know, how, how can we, and the

703

:

government was actually supporting this.

704

:

How can we get those teacher

training programs earlier on in

705

:

their programs, more engaged with

the kids, not necessarily with the

706

:

teachers in a traditional sense of,

of a practicum experience in the

707

:

classroom, but doing mentoring and

little kids, tutoring a little kids,

708

:

N/A: um,

709

:

Jim Hoffman: one on one sort

of relationships, small group

710

:

relationships that they would

have as teaching experiences.

711

:

So that's something we brought

directly from our work in the U S.

712

:

Um, so we set up little mentoring programs

where they would go and they'd, the 25,

713

:

there's a great set of videos on this

where the little group of 25 pre service

714

:

teachers would march over into the

elementary school, pull their kids out

715

:

and we'd go over and we'd do this work.

716

:

It was amazing.

717

:

And so if I compare,

718

:

N/A: yeah,

719

:

Jim Hoffman: there's no difference.

720

:

I would take any of those pre service

teachers right back in, they were, they

721

:

did, they were off the scale in terms of.

722

:

Related to work with kids.

723

:

It was also interesting.

724

:

It was mostly male.

725

:

Well, not mostly I would say 50 50

726

:

N/A: And that

727

:

Jim Hoffman: was something.

728

:

Yeah, certainly You know, I did

40 years at UT Austin and I can

729

:

probably count six to eight males

that I actually worked with.

730

:

Here it was about half.

731

:

Um, so, so that was

like, well, this is good.

732

:

And, uh, and, and, but that work was

directly sort of influential and, and, and

733

:

worked exactly in their context and, and,

and, and the challenges were none of the

734

:

teachers at the teacher training college

had ever taught in an elementary school.

735

:

It's, it's a path for, it's, it's a path

that comes out of secondary programs.

736

:

So typically, educators in the teacher

training colleges have worked in a

737

:

secondary teaching setting, not all of

them, but quite a few of them at least,

738

:

none of them have worked in private.

739

:

And so the idea of, and yet they're

teaching all methodology courses that

740

:

support their working with elementary

kids, and they were terrified.

741

:

I mean, they wouldn't say that, but

trying to get them to come down into

742

:

working with us, with elementary kids,

they had just hadn't had that experience.

743

:

I mean, Wasn't they were capable

of it, at least, and not had

744

:

the experience themselves, and

were terrified, um, about it.

745

:

Anyway, the one thing I wanted to

point out is, is something that I would

746

:

say is similar no matter where I go

and work with teachers is there are

747

:

always these exceptional, exceptional

teachers that are just, knock your

748

:

socks off, how did you do that?

749

:

How do you do this?

750

:

We have a, we had a particular

teacher in the lobby who.

751

:

I had to walk five miles, I think, to

the school every morning and go back

752

:

and five miles, had a hundred kids in

her classroom and did stuff with books

753

:

and kids and language and literacy.

754

:

N/A: But

755

:

Jim Hoffman: I never seen,

I mean, it was just in awe.

756

:

And we see that at home too.

757

:

I mean, you go to a school, you find

these teachers that are just doing

758

:

amazing things in spite of everything

that's going on around them, uh, are

759

:

able to center themselves in their

classrooms and the, Be amazing.

760

:

So yeah, what I see is the potential for

amazing teacher ev teachers everywhere.

761

:

Margaret Vaughn: Yeah.

762

:

It's, it's wild.

763

:

It's like the practice of teaching is

a universal, of course, the contexts

764

:

are different and there's different

constraints and affordances, but I

765

:

find that interesting just listening

to stories about teaching, how wow.

766

:

You know, teachers are really amazing.

767

:

It's just the, the practice of

teaching to me is just, for me,

768

:

it's always been elevated, but

you know, not having visited any.

769

:

of these contexts.

770

:

It just, I find it to be interesting

to hear how just, you know, that

771

:

idea that teachers are amazing and

the profession is really amazing.

772

:

So it's, it's kind of has elevated it even

higher for me than just to understand it.

773

:

Jim Hoffman: Appreciation.

774

:

Yeah.

775

:

Appreciation, too, for

language flexibility.

776

:

That's the other thing

that in our context.

777

:

It's not unusual in my context,

because I'm almost always working

778

:

in, in low income communities.

779

:

Most of those communities are

in Texas, and most of those kids

780

:

are Latino kids, Latino kids.

781

:

And so the language diversity that

I work with here was very helpful

782

:

for any of the work that I've done

across Africa, because language

783

:

policy, language variation is huge.

784

:

You know, where you.

785

:

You're working with teachers who speak

four and five languages and kids who speak

786

:

N/A: three or

787

:

Jim Hoffman: four languages, and

then you've got official language

788

:

policy that's privileging English.

789

:

Anyway, it's in, in that

varies by country, not just by

790

:

country, but by regions within

countries in terms of these.

791

:

The language resources that kids

bring and trying to help policymakers,

792

:

particularly and in educational

leaders, understand that, um, that

793

:

the language diversity is a resource.

794

:

It's not a problem.

795

:

Yeah,

796

:

Margaret Vaughn: it's not.

797

:

It's not something

798

:

Jim Hoffman: wrong.

799

:

It's something very, very

useful and very important.

800

:

Margaret Vaughn: I love that.

801

:

I love that, Jim.

802

:

So this is a question.

803

:

How about suggestions

or insights right now?

804

:

I mean, I know I, we, I talked to

you a little bit about your piece on

805

:

contesting science that science silences

amplifying equity agency and design

806

:

research and literacy teacher preparation.

807

:

That's like one of my, I, you know,

I've several of my favorite pieces of

808

:

your work, but recently that coming

back to that often, um, I just, I,

809

:

you know, I, you know, I just going

to read a little bit of your abstract.

810

:

The science of reading construct

is being used to shape the future

811

:

of literacy teacher preparation.

812

:

and silence the voices and work of

literacy teacher education researchers to

813

:

the detriment of quality science, quality

teaching, and quality teacher preparation.

814

:

So I, I love that, especially

where we are in the U.

815

:

S.

816

:

right now, and I wondered if you, if

you have some thoughts or some insights.

817

:

Jim Hoffman: I, I, I have lots of

emotion, but, um, first of all, that,

818

:

that was a co author, but obviously a

co author piece with Misty and Michiko.

819

:

Um, so it's, it's a beautiful thing.

820

:

And I think in many ways in that

piece, we're revoicing things

821

:

we hear from other people.

822

:

so many of our colleagues.

823

:

So it's, I don't think there's probably

an original thought in that, in that

824

:

piece, um, because so many of us, um, are

in that same space of, of, of trying to,

825

:

trying to understand, trying to get, um,

trying, trying to continue to do the work

826

:

that we do in a context where The, the,

the policies that are shaping classroom

827

:

practices are so, uh, at odds with

what we're trying to value and present.

828

:

And, you know, I, we had a survey

done in Texas last year, two years

829

:

ago, it was last year, this spring,

asking teachers, did they plan to

830

:

come back to teaching next year?

831

:

Margaret Vaughn: Yeah, what happened?

832

:

Yeah.

833

:

Jim Hoffman: 70 percent of

the teachers said they were

834

:

thinking about not coming back.

835

:

Oh, gosh.

836

:

And.

837

:

I think that's the conditions of teaching,

both, I mean, whether it's from a basic

838

:

level of just salary, um, whether it's

the new opportunities that are being

839

:

presented for what, new opportunities

that are being presented, or just complete

840

:

frustration with what, what they thought

teaching was going to be compared to what

841

:

they're being asked and demanded to do.

842

:

Um, so.

843

:

So I, I've, I mean, I just read a

report, it was by some senator, that's

844

:

a commission on, it's a commissioned

report on why we aren't doing the science

845

:

of reading and why we should be and how

everything we've been doing is wrong.

846

:

And if you looked at it, this is

a, this is a senator, and this is

847

:

a national sort of report that's

been prepared to argue for more SOR.

848

:

N/A: Right.

849

:

Jim Hoffman: And if you look at the

references that, that is, are claiming

850

:

this is the science of reading, there

isn't a single reference to research,

851

:

a single actual research, a single

reference to an actual research study.

852

:

50 percent of the studies are, 50 percent

of the citations are to Ed Wheatley

853

:

or Emily Hansford, uh, or somebody

else who's just revoicing things like,

854

:

you know, there aren't three queuing

systems that's been proven false.

855

:

And there's like, could we

look into that just a little

856

:

N/A: bit more?

857

:

Show

858

:

Jim Hoffman: me exactly where

this research is coming from.

859

:

It's pretty, it's pretty

860

:

N/A: outrageous.

861

:

Jim Hoffman: I, I, I'm having, I

mean, seeing as I'm trying to retire

862

:

as Jerry sell me, um, it takes time.

863

:

I'm still working on, we're working

on, I'm working on the theoretical

864

:

models, the next edition of

Theoretical Models with Misty and

865

:

Donna Allman and some other folks.

866

:

Uh, so we're still, I'm

still engaged and involved.

867

:

I'm finishing up on some studies.

868

:

But I do see myself more and more stepping

away and more and more sort of feeling bad

869

:

that, um, I'm stepping away from a fight

that needs to, that teachers particularly

870

:

and families and kids, um, they, they

need support and, and, and I feel like

871

:

I'm sort of retreating when I should be

in the opposite mode, but I'm not sure.

872

:

I mean, I don't.

873

:

I don't buy into this too will pass.

874

:

I, I, I don't think I can particularly I

think this is, um, not neither of those.

875

:

I mean, I don't think we

can wait and let it pass.

876

:

And I don't think it's a pendulum.

877

:

I think it's, um, it's, it's good.

878

:

It will, it's going to run a

course, but I'm not quite sure yet

879

:

what that course is going to be.

880

:

Um, I mean, it's, it's,

um, and in some ways.

881

:

Margaret, I, I, I'm not, I mean, I

think there's, there's plenty we can

882

:

do with working with code with kids.

883

:

I absolutely believe that.

884

:

And I think in a, in a way, I think

we've lost some sight of that in

885

:

our teacher preparation programs.

886

:

Um, part of that is, I gave

the example in Mozambique.

887

:

where the teacher educators were

never, never taught in primary grades.

888

:

That, that's pretty true in our field.

889

:

N/A: If

890

:

Jim Hoffman: you look through the folks

and look at their background and where

891

:

they, where they come from, we have a

lot of secondary folks, um, and great

892

:

people, I mean, amazing scholars.

893

:

It's not been good, but, but when you

go down to calculate and find out where

894

:

the, where the primary grade teachers,

um, and, and, Where their voices

895

:

in this larger scholarly community.

896

:

It's I'm not sure it's always

present or as alive as it should be.

897

:

And maybe I can sort of like, look at

science at reading and say, well, we

898

:

should be paying attention to code.

899

:

That's absolutely.

900

:

No question about that.

901

:

So that's not a, that's not a question.

902

:

It's a question of how, um, and

what are teacher educators who are

903

:

preparing teachers doing specifically

to address code in their, in the

904

:

teacher preparation programs?

905

:

And I would not be surprised at

all if it's, I don't, I, I do

906

:

not, obviously, the, um, What's

the National Teacher Quality?

907

:

Oh,

908

:

N/A: and CTQ.

909

:

Jim Hoffman: Yeah, I mean, that's there.

910

:

That's not the answer.

911

:

Looking at syllabus is not the answer

912

:

N/A: for

913

:

Jim Hoffman: how much code

instruction is actually going on.

914

:

But I do think, so part of me is

like, we could be doing a lot more.

915

:

It's just what we need to do.

916

:

It doesn't have anything to do

with what the science of reading

917

:

people are telling us we need to do.

918

:

N/A: Right, right, right.

919

:

We need

920

:

Jim Hoffman: to be paying a

lot more attention to writing.

921

:

I beat this drum constantly that kids use

code in writing and come to explore the

922

:

code and understand the code and how the

code works much more through their writing

923

:

than they do through their reading.

924

:

N/A: And we've got

925

:

Jim Hoffman: to ask backwards.

926

:

We're constantly reading

first, writing next.

927

:

When code direct explicit systematic

sequential code instruction in I, I'd like

928

:

to see some evidence that actually works.

929

:

I mean, I don't know if any, I

know attention to code works,

930

:

N/A: but

931

:

Jim Hoffman: I don't know that what

the claims from, from that are from

932

:

the research that the claims are being

made from, uh, are actually on target.

933

:

I heard one the other day, somebody was

going on about this recent study that's,

934

:

um, showed that phonemic awareness and

phonological awareness should be taught

935

:

to kids in the presence of text, that we

shouldn't, even though it's a phone, and

936

:

I thought, we've known that for, Ever.

937

:

And certainly Linnea Neary showed

that specifically 20 years ago.

938

:

Yeah, that's not a new new discovery.

939

:

I

940

:

Margaret Vaughn: know, that's not new.

941

:

New

942

:

Jim Hoffman: discovery.

943

:

When we do this, we

should probably have text.

944

:

And somebody's eventually

going to discover that if we

945

:

do this, And this is not new.

946

:

If we engage kids as writers early on

and allow them to do their invented

947

:

spellings or whatever we're allowed to

use, that's where they're exploring code.

948

:

And then they can take that knowledge

and apply it in their reading easily.

949

:

But we've, we've got, and I don't hear

that from anyone in science or reading.

950

:

Yeah,

951

:

Margaret Vaughn: I love that.

952

:

Um, I just to build on what you're

saying, uh, you know, I, I find it

953

:

outrageous that, you know, I was

just visiting schools and in Ohio

954

:

and they can't teach running records.

955

:

N/A: No.

956

:

I

957

:

Margaret Vaughn: can't teach in teacher

preparation how to do running records.

958

:

And as a former first grade teacher,

like I am like, I don't understand

959

:

how you can't like, I don't

understand how, I don't understand

960

:

where there's harm in that at all.

961

:

Uh, but I find that that's happening.

962

:

I've heard that from people in Ohio

and North Carolina, like there's

963

:

different pockets where they

can't even say running records.

964

:

They can't even teach it.

965

:

Jim Hoffman: NCTQ has, you know, the,

I don't know if your school, yeah,

966

:

N/A: I don't even, so every

967

:

Jim Hoffman: school I've

ever been at has failed

968

:

.

N/A: Yeah.

969

:

Jim Hoffman: CTQ.

970

:

Um, but what they've changed recently.

971

:

is they, there used to be a

things that they're looking for.

972

:

So they're searching for your

syllabi for you mentioned that

973

:

now it's part of their criteria.

974

:

They're searching for things that

you're saying that you can't say.

975

:

So you can't say,

976

:

N/A: you can't

977

:

Jim Hoffman: say, I mean, you,

you can't say guided reading.

978

:

You can't say, I mean, it's like

979

:

Margaret Vaughn: a dirty word.

980

:

I don't, I don't get it.

981

:

I don't know.

982

:

Jim Hoffman: I don't know what

I, I mean, I don't know what

983

:

I would do if I didn't have.

984

:

If I didn't have running records or

miscue analysis, it's a way of seeing into

985

:

Margaret Vaughn: I really agree.

986

:

Jim Hoffman: And building

strategies with kids.

987

:

I don't get

988

:

Margaret Vaughn: it.

989

:

I don't.

990

:

Jim Hoffman: What, I don't know what you

use unless you just change the name of it,

991

:

which, okay, if that's, but I, I, I also

balk at that because of, The vilification.

992

:

Margaret Vaughn: Yeah.

993

:

Jim Hoffman: I mean,

994

:

Margaret Vaughn: yeah, I know it's just

995

:

Jim Hoffman: people who are who have

careers of this amazing scholars are

996

:

just, yeah, I mean, you you see it.

997

:

I mean, you're more clay.

998

:

I mean, that's like, I know, I

999

:

Margaret Vaughn: know, I just,

I find that so disheartening.

:

00:56:42,990 --> 00:56:44,910

And I feel like I agree with you.

:

00:56:44,910 --> 00:56:46,280

I don't think this too shall pass.

:

00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:50,370

I feel like there's something about

it that feels vicious that I, I,

:

00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:53,980

it's causing me to really think, Oh,

You know, we really all know it's

:

00:56:54,610 --> 00:56:58,509

Jim Hoffman: people come back to

this is this is the this is the

:

00:56:58,890 --> 00:57:00,650

destruction of public education.

:

00:57:01,240 --> 00:57:04,540

Um, that that's that's the goal.

:

00:57:04,850 --> 00:57:08,310

It's not really about literacy or

about reading or teaching that it's

:

00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:16,330

it's to dismantle public education,

and I've never I mean, I would have

:

00:57:16,330 --> 00:57:20,950

trouble sending my own kids to a public

school because of the regulation.

:

00:57:21,190 --> 00:57:29,770

So if that's the point, you know, make

it so So painful and so disingenuous

:

00:57:29,770 --> 00:57:31,980

for kids and so un child centered.

:

00:57:32,530 --> 00:57:34,250

I'd have to send my kids

somewhere else, too.

:

00:57:34,530 --> 00:57:37,340

Margaret Vaughn: Yeah, yeah, it's a

real struggle, especially if you're a

:

00:57:37,340 --> 00:57:41,000

public, I mean, I, I, we wrestle with

that, I mean, a public school advocate

:

00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:46,330

and to see some of the things I, I,

I, yeah, I feel that, I feel that,

:

00:57:46,350 --> 00:57:49,675

and I feel that, Um, connection there.

:

00:57:49,685 --> 00:57:53,525

So, um, I, I love talking with you, Jim.

:

00:57:53,545 --> 00:57:58,635

I just are so, it's so wonderful to hear

you talking, you know, you're, you know,

:

00:57:59,735 --> 00:58:03,195

I feel like when you, one of the things

that I love about the work that you do,

:

00:58:03,195 --> 00:58:06,995

the writing that you do, especially, is

you have such a powerful voice, you know,

:

00:58:07,405 --> 00:58:12,325

and you, you know, this quest for the

perfect method or the silver bullet, you

:

00:58:12,325 --> 00:58:13,565

know, Jerry, and you wrote that piece.

:

00:58:13,565 --> 00:58:16,035

And, you know, I often

think about that so often.

:

00:58:16,035 --> 00:58:19,620

And so I, I love, I love your

writing and I love your thinking.

:

00:58:19,620 --> 00:58:24,750

And, uh, how about, so given your

career striving to really, to

:

00:58:24,750 --> 00:58:29,760

transform thinking, what do any current

advice for us in the field or for

:

00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:31,280

all of us in general, in this work?

:

00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:33,590

What are your, what's

your, What's your thinking?

:

00:58:35,220 --> 00:58:35,760

Any current advice?

:

00:58:37,990 --> 00:58:39,609

Jim Hoffman: That would be,

:

00:58:39,610 --> 00:58:43,740

N/A: I mean, the thing, Well, I do,

:

00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:48,240

Jim Hoffman: I'll just, a small, it's

not small, but I do think we need

:

00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:49,120

to pay more attention to writing.

:

00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:54,210

I mean, I just, I think, in the digital

spaces that we're working, particularly,

:

00:58:54,490 --> 00:58:59,400

if you look at, um, what's that, The

Rise of Writing, who did the, um,

:

00:59:00,050 --> 00:59:07,410

what's her name, um, we went to the

local, um, she did the piece on, um,

:

00:59:11,195 --> 00:59:13,395

Margaret Vaughn: It'll come to you at

midnight tonight, so it'll come to,

:

00:59:14,015 --> 00:59:18,975

Jim Hoffman: but, but I think the,

the, The amount of how the writing

:

00:59:18,975 --> 00:59:20,585

is changing people's lives today.

:

00:59:20,615 --> 00:59:21,475

Everybody's a writer.

:

00:59:21,675 --> 00:59:24,385

I mean, 15 years ago, it's hard.

:

00:59:24,515 --> 00:59:25,185

I don't like to write.

:

00:59:25,185 --> 00:59:25,745

I don't write.

:

00:59:26,095 --> 00:59:26,965

Everybody writes.

:

00:59:27,015 --> 00:59:28,565

Everybody has something to say.

:

00:59:29,035 --> 00:59:29,725

Everybody writes.

:

00:59:30,125 --> 00:59:33,525

It's changed, you know, the

relationship of writing and reading

:

00:59:33,805 --> 00:59:35,635

in literacy is really shifting.

:

00:59:36,675 --> 00:59:41,165

And I think if if there's a suggestion,

I just think we need to be really active

:

00:59:42,065 --> 00:59:44,485

and in thinking about our preparation.

:

00:59:45,335 --> 00:59:51,265

Of teachers to teach reading, we need

to be sure that there is no space

:

00:59:51,275 --> 00:59:53,055

between that and teaching them writing.

:

00:59:53,085 --> 00:59:55,695

Even the space, even the

odd spaces that we created.

:

00:59:56,105 --> 00:59:58,415

We have a reading methods course

and a writing methods course.

:

00:59:58,975 --> 01:00:01,595

That's probably not a good idea.

:

01:00:02,115 --> 01:00:06,145

I mean, I think because these, these

language systems interact so much,

:

01:00:06,565 --> 01:00:10,705

um, that, that the more attention we

can pay to both reading and writing, I

:

01:00:10,715 --> 01:00:15,835

think that'll help us sort of disrupt,

disrupt Some of the, the simple views

:

01:00:16,165 --> 01:00:17,890

and the focus just on reading as if.

:

01:00:18,770 --> 01:00:21,200

That's happening independent

of oral language development

:

01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:23,110

of thinking of everything.

:

01:00:23,870 --> 01:00:28,230

Um, so I guess I would say that is

something that that is something

:

01:00:28,230 --> 01:00:30,970

we need to be more intentional

about and focused on in our work.

:

01:00:31,910 --> 01:00:36,160

Um, the other thing that I just

am writing about a lot right

:

01:00:36,230 --> 01:00:38,550

now is, is design research.

:

01:00:39,295 --> 01:00:42,775

Um, and I think I've I've

found a home for what I do.

:

01:00:43,705 --> 01:00:44,175

It isn't.

:

01:00:44,645 --> 01:00:49,455

And maybe it's made me a little bit

smarter about how I do research and

:

01:00:49,455 --> 01:00:51,225

how I think about what research is.

:

01:00:51,285 --> 01:00:58,875

Um, and so I've, um, I've really come

to, to just go all in for thinking about,

:

01:00:58,875 --> 01:01:05,245

um, design research and the potential for

design research as a tool for us in our

:

01:01:05,245 --> 01:01:08,085

scholarship and in relating to practice.

:

01:01:08,115 --> 01:01:15,495

Um, and I use, um, I use a lot of the

different people right now and thinking

:

01:01:15,495 --> 01:01:21,069

about it, but I think the idea, what

I, what I like is this idea that, that

:

01:01:21,390 --> 01:01:23,880

That we are really about improvement.

:

01:01:24,330 --> 01:01:27,540

We're really about, um, some

people call it design research.

:

01:01:27,550 --> 01:01:31,700

Some people call it improvement,

improvement sciences.

:

01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:35,720

Um, there's lots of different names that

people are applying to that, to that.

:

01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:40,660

But I think the more we can move away

from traditional sort of psychological

:

01:01:40,660 --> 01:01:45,540

roots, um, in thinking about our work and

thinking more of what we do in terms of

:

01:01:46,070 --> 01:01:48,400

we're designers, we're, we're about not.

:

01:01:49,050 --> 01:01:52,990

understanding what is, but what

could be, or what should be.

:

01:01:53,380 --> 01:01:53,742

N/A: Nice, nice.

:

01:01:53,742 --> 01:01:53,964

And

:

01:01:53,964 --> 01:01:56,690

Jim Hoffman: so, and the, and the

tools for doing that in design

:

01:01:56,700 --> 01:02:02,870

research, um, are, are different

from traditional sort of research.

:

01:02:02,970 --> 01:02:07,060

You know, the, the gold standard,

the gold standard of research that

:

01:02:07,060 --> 01:02:10,200

keeps getting thrown at us, to

me, is not gold standard research.

:

01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:12,340

That's, in psychology, yes, possibly.

:

01:02:12,340 --> 01:02:16,545

But, um, But if I look at COVID, the

research, the gold standard research, if

:

01:02:16,545 --> 01:02:20,605

that was the experimental studies that

validated the effectiveness of it, that's

:

01:02:20,605 --> 01:02:22,015

not the real research that went through.

:

01:02:22,025 --> 01:02:25,645

Real research went on in laboratories,

um, where people were trying to

:

01:02:25,645 --> 01:02:31,095

understand what was happening and

how to, and how to make change,

:

01:02:31,155 --> 01:02:31,465

N/A: right?

:

01:02:31,615 --> 01:02:31,875

And how to

:

01:02:31,875 --> 01:02:32,725

Jim Hoffman: make things better.

:

01:02:33,215 --> 01:02:37,915

Those are the, those are the, that's what

I think we're, that's, so the more we can

:

01:02:37,925 --> 01:02:39,975

move toward the design perspective on.

:

01:02:40,660 --> 01:02:45,960

Um, on the work we do and not worry

so much about generalizability or

:

01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:52,160

scalability, but rather think about is I

do about my work and teacher at what are

:

01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:57,170

the design principles that we have found

to be important to pay attention to in

:

01:02:57,170 --> 01:03:03,220

the work we do in our particular context,

and those design principles if we can,

:

01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:08,780

if we can explicate those and represent

those and ground those in data, then that

:

01:03:08,970 --> 01:03:13,170

gives other people a People, um, other

researchers opportunities to explore

:

01:03:13,170 --> 01:03:17,870

that in a different context, um, to, to

look at variations in those principles

:

01:03:17,870 --> 01:03:19,140

in different contexts and so on.

:

01:03:19,140 --> 01:03:25,320

So, um, so, yeah, so, so I am

all in on design research and I

:

01:03:25,350 --> 01:03:27,430

really see it as a, as a movement.

:

01:03:28,210 --> 01:03:33,810

That's, um, that's taking, um, sometimes

I worry about formative design research

:

01:03:34,190 --> 01:03:39,625

because that's sometimes when you

say the term design research, People

:

01:03:39,635 --> 01:03:41,255

think formative design research.

:

01:03:41,385 --> 01:03:41,755

N/A: Yeah.

:

01:03:42,215 --> 01:03:43,805

Jim Hoffman: All of Ryan

King and that group.

:

01:03:44,015 --> 01:03:44,305

N/A: Yeah,

:

01:03:44,815 --> 01:03:45,075

Jim Hoffman: that's fine.

:

01:03:45,215 --> 01:03:48,725

I like formative design

research, but it's still more.

:

01:03:49,115 --> 01:03:53,395

It's, it's not, it's not what

I think about design research.

:

01:03:53,425 --> 01:03:58,865

When I think of design research, I think

of people making stuff and building new

:

01:03:58,865 --> 01:04:04,145

programs and, and, and, and studying and

making iterations in those programs and,

:

01:04:04,475 --> 01:04:08,075

and looking at the influence of that

in that iteration that they made and,

:

01:04:08,075 --> 01:04:12,170

and, and, being more imaginative and

being more creative work that they're

:

01:04:12,170 --> 01:04:17,910

doing, but, but not separate, not

distant from, from actual empirical data.

:

01:04:18,010 --> 01:04:21,360

I mean, it's, it's, it's,

so it's not non data driven.

:

01:04:21,940 --> 01:04:24,010

It's just data driven in a different way.

:

01:04:24,210 --> 01:04:30,350

Um, so I, I think there's, I mean,

particularly when you look at, um,

:

01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:37,150

the, I mean, look at how we make

progress in, in medicine, how we make

:

01:04:37,150 --> 01:04:41,050

progress in, um, In computer sciences.

:

01:04:41,350 --> 01:04:46,340

And I mean, it's not doing, you know,

experimental studies where we push,

:

01:04:46,430 --> 01:04:50,340

you know, we introduce something and we

do those kind of traditional contrast.

:

01:04:50,850 --> 01:04:53,070

Um, we're actually building stuff.

:

01:04:53,110 --> 01:04:54,330

We're trying new things.

:

01:04:56,185 --> 01:04:59,525

I think Jerry's career has been,

it's been that your career.

:

01:04:59,835 --> 01:05:05,555

I mean, I think people who understand

that we're about making things better.

:

01:05:06,195 --> 01:05:12,025

Um, that's, that's, that's

the, um, that's the imperative

:

01:05:12,025 --> 01:05:14,535

for, for us as, as scholars.

:

01:05:15,065 --> 01:05:22,805

Um, so I have this hope that,

um, that, that will take hold.

:

01:05:22,935 --> 01:05:23,325

I don't know.

:

01:05:23,455 --> 01:05:30,175

I mean, it's very curtailed and it's very,

I mean, all the kind of, It's, it's, it's,

:

01:05:30,205 --> 01:05:37,435

it's very action practice based kind of

work that we can do, um, and it's going

:

01:05:37,435 --> 01:05:39,785

to require a trend, a real transformation.

:

01:05:39,785 --> 01:05:41,235

But, but I see it.

:

01:05:41,235 --> 01:05:42,625

I see it in the learning sciences.

:

01:05:42,625 --> 01:05:47,115

And we have faculty now who identify

themselves as learning scientists.

:

01:05:48,605 --> 01:05:52,345

And improvement sciences, the

Carnegie Foundation, I mean, a lot

:

01:05:52,345 --> 01:05:55,235

of people are doing improvement

sciences, design sciences.

:

01:05:55,235 --> 01:05:59,285

I mean, those are all like

groups of researchers that are

:

01:05:59,545 --> 01:06:04,755

approaching, approaching research

from, from something that I think.

:

01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:10,000

we as teacher educators or as

classroom teachers can really benefit

:

01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:14,550

from and take up, um, in our work.

:

01:06:16,310 --> 01:06:19,210

So that would be the,

did I say two things?

:

01:06:19,590 --> 01:06:20,070

Margaret Vaughn: I love that.

:

01:06:20,070 --> 01:06:22,160

I just love that.

:

01:06:22,730 --> 01:06:28,010

Well, I, I thank you so much for talking

today and, and all of the wonderful

:

01:06:28,010 --> 01:06:32,235

work you've done and, uh, You know,

I'm a huge fan and we really haven't

:

01:06:32,235 --> 01:06:35,385

Jim Hoffman: talked about

specific specific programs at

:

01:06:35,385 --> 01:06:36,255

work, but that's all right.

:

01:06:36,255 --> 01:06:41,955

Margaret Vaughn: I mean, I, I think you're

your work just speaks volumes and just

:

01:06:41,955 --> 01:06:46,185

the sensibilities and the sensitivity you

have in terms of, you know, Approaching

:

01:06:46,185 --> 01:06:49,285

communities and the uniqueness that

each community has and programs.

:

01:06:49,285 --> 01:06:54,075

And, uh, I just I find you so just your

work so inspiring you and your colleagues.

:

01:06:54,075 --> 01:06:56,285

It just it's such a model.

:

01:06:56,375 --> 01:07:01,075

And I if you know, I feel like if

policymakers and if the SRR people could

:

01:07:01,075 --> 01:07:04,785

just take some time to listen to some

of these, you know, conversations, I

:

01:07:04,785 --> 01:07:09,755

feel like, boy, we could all get smarter

by listening to individuals like you.

:

01:07:09,755 --> 01:07:11,585

So thank you.

:

01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:12,500

That's

:

01:07:12,500 --> 01:07:13,650

Jim Hoffman: very, very nice.

:

01:07:13,650 --> 01:07:17,380

I'm so, I'm, I'm honored to

be asked and to participate.

:

01:07:17,380 --> 01:07:18,500

I really appreciate it.

:

01:07:18,550 --> 01:07:22,680

And, uh, and I know your path a little bit

about, I know quite a bit about your path.

:

01:07:23,700 --> 01:07:30,560

Um, and that's, that's for me, an

inspiring part of what we do in our

:

01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:36,980

careers is, I mean, I, I have had,

I was trying to count the other

:

01:07:36,980 --> 01:07:40,240

day, the number of undergraduates.

:

01:07:40,735 --> 01:07:44,835

That I taught in my, in our

program at UT Austin, who are now

:

01:07:45,845 --> 01:07:48,275

faculty at university, part of

:

01:07:48,895 --> 01:07:48,915

N/A: the

:

01:07:49,205 --> 01:07:50,335

Jim Hoffman: research community.

:

01:07:51,125 --> 01:07:52,085

It's huge.

:

01:07:52,154 --> 01:07:53,225

I mean, it's huge.

:

01:07:53,265 --> 01:07:57,455

I mean, it's, it's a lot of

people who have come through our

:

01:07:57,455 --> 01:08:01,175

undergraduate program and somehow

or another been inspired to continue

:

01:08:01,175 --> 01:08:02,575

that path and do their own work.

:

01:08:02,625 --> 01:08:08,045

And what's been crucial in that

always has been the doctoral

:

01:08:08,045 --> 01:08:09,105

students that I've worked with.

:

01:08:09,420 --> 01:08:13,640

Because my undergraduates would never

look at me and say, I want to do that.

:

01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:18,100

But they could look at the

Rachel Salas, the, I mean, just

:

01:08:18,130 --> 01:08:19,560

go down the list of people.

:

01:08:20,010 --> 01:08:22,410

They could look at them and say,

I can, I want to do what you do.

:

01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:28,090

And what that was visible to them was

that, that commitment and participation

:

01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:32,109

and mentoring that they did with those

undergraduates that was part of our

:

01:08:32,109 --> 01:08:38,520

program that, um, so I think that, that

having spaces for doctoral students.

:

01:08:40,055 --> 01:08:46,085

to grow into their own academic lives

and in their own professional identities.

:

01:08:46,595 --> 01:08:51,975

Um, the spaces for them to do that, to

come through that kind of nurturing, uh,

:

01:08:52,335 --> 01:08:55,495

experience, I think is really important.

:

01:08:55,675 --> 01:08:57,734

And I don't know how universal that is.

:

01:08:58,354 --> 01:09:03,035

I don't know that a lot of our doctoral

students come into our professions

:

01:09:03,890 --> 01:09:07,880

through fairly traditional, kind

of like what I did with Ron Carver.

:

01:09:07,940 --> 01:09:08,359

I was his TA.

:

01:09:09,029 --> 01:09:09,770

I mean, I wasn't his TA.

:

01:09:10,390 --> 01:09:10,830

I was his RA.

:

01:09:11,550 --> 01:09:14,930

And I was involved in every project that

Ron was doing, either collecting data or

:

01:09:14,930 --> 01:09:16,609

analyzing data or doing stuff like that.

:

01:09:17,950 --> 01:09:21,960

I guess that prepared me for

being an academic in some ways.

:

01:09:21,970 --> 01:09:26,520

Um, But it wasn't nearly the kind of

preparation that I think Jerry offered,

:

01:09:27,029 --> 01:09:31,029

um, in his years and years and years of

his work, or the kind of program that

:

01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:35,710

we've offered in Austin, uh, for our

students to come through, um, and develop

:

01:09:35,710 --> 01:09:41,910

their identities that are, you know, kind

of this, this beautiful little path that

:

01:09:41,910 --> 01:09:43,690

they've, that they've come to understand.

:

01:09:44,510 --> 01:09:53,510

Yeah, I'm working now in my last semester

at UNT, and my partner is, uh, in the

:

01:09:53,510 --> 01:09:57,860

research is just, was hired last year

at UNT, and she was an undergraduate

:

01:09:57,870 --> 01:10:00,790

of mine, an undergraduate student,

and a master's student of mine.

:

01:10:00,850 --> 01:10:01,330

N/A: That's great.

:

01:10:01,990 --> 01:10:04,380

Jim Hoffman: They just hired another

one who was a former student.

:

01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:12,590

So, so it's, that's encouraging and

inspiring that they're still looking to

:

01:10:12,590 --> 01:10:19,230

do this, uh, and, and I, I really, as I

think about you and your relationship with

:

01:10:19,230 --> 01:10:24,990

Jerry and, uh, and others, that's, that's,

that's a path that I hope we can encourage

:

01:10:24,990 --> 01:10:27,460

people to, uh, to continue to explore.

:

01:10:28,110 --> 01:10:31,610

Margaret Vaughn: Well, you are

exceptional and, and, uh, thank you again.

:

01:10:32,150 --> 01:10:32,430

Thank you.

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About the Podcast

Getting Smarter
The podcast where knowledge meets curiosity. Join professor Margaret Vaughn as she explores groundbreaking ideas with top scholars, aimed at sharpening our thinking. With her guests, Dr. Vaughn dives into a world of profound insights and intellectual adventure. Our journey to getting smarter starts here.

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Margaret Vaughn

Margaret Vaughn, PhD. is a professor in the Department of Teaching and Learning at Washington State University. As a literacy researcher and former classroom educator, she recognizes the valuable role of teacher input and decision making in policy and practice and supports efforts to develop equity-focused learning environments. She is an advocate for student agency and works both nationally and internationally to discuss the role of student agency in learning environments. She is the recipient of several awards including the American Educational Research Association’s Review of Research Award as well as the Association of Teacher Educator’s Distinguished Research in Teacher Education and is a US Fulbright Specialist. Her award-winning research addresses issues of teacher practice and contemporary educational issues. She has published numerous articles on developing agentic focused literacy practices, adaptive instruction, and teacher visioning as well as books such as, Accelerating Learning Recovery for All Students: Core Principles for Getting Literacy Growth Back on Track (Guilford Press), Teaching with Children’s Literature: Theory to Practice (Guilford Press), Student Agency: Honoring Student Voice in the Curriculum (Teachers College Press), Overcoming Reading Challenges: Kindergarten through Middle School and co-editor of Principles of Effective Literacy Instruction, Grades K-5 (Guilford Press).